Armed forces Pay – Three member committee meeting on

Tuesday, October 14, 2008

This article is posted in 6CPC Matters category and has 55 Comments so far.

Efforts to resolve the “anomalies” in the new pay scales for armed forces gained momentum with External Affairs Minister Mr.Pranab Mukherjee on Tuesday discussing the matter with Finance Minister Mr.P. Chidambaram.

Mukherjee, who is heading a three-member ministerial committee looking into the issue, held discussions with Chidambaram after holding consultations with Prime Minister Mr.Manmohan Singh.

Mr.Mukherjee and Mr.Chidambaram were together for about an hour during which they are understood to have explored ways to address the issue to the satisfaction of the forces.

The Defence Services, led by their Chiefs, are up in arms over the 6th Pay Commission recommendations, alleging that it compromised their status and honour.

Emerging from the meeting at the External Affairs Minister’s South Block office, Mr.Chidambaram refused to comment on the deliberations, saying it was his first meeting with Mr.Mukherjee on the issue.

Mr.Mukherjee yesterday said he had discussed the matter with the Prime Minister and that he hoped the issue would be settled shortly.

The committee, which also includes Mr.Antony and Mr.Chidambaram, was set up by the Prime Minister on September 25 in the wake of deep resentment in the armed forces, who complained that there were “anomalies” in the Sixth Pay Commission recommendations and that it had lowered the status of their officers.

Source: The Hindu (14-10-08)

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55 Responses to “Armed forces Pay – Three member committee meeting on”

MKS said on Wednesday, October 15, 2008, 23:21

Proposed Armed Forces after 6th CPC
Recently we have seen the mutiny like situation created by Armed Forces after 6th CPC recommendations and implementations. In case the political and bureaucracy allows them to continue like this we may be heading for another Pakistan or Bangladesh. In order to save democracy and control the situation the following steps are suggested:
1. Cabinet Secretary to be upgraded to Principal Cabinet Secretary.
2. Defense Secretary to be upgraded to Cabinet Secretary.
3. Service Chiefs to be brought under the control of Cabinet Secretary.
4. Service personnel to be withdrawn completely from the mixed organizations.
5. In case service personnel occupy posts in the mixed organizations the personnel from all the streams should be paid same and should enjoy the same facilities and status as envisaged for the post.
6. Service personnel should be paid any amount as deemed fit while doing the duty for which they have been recruited.
7. During British period also as back as 1923 through Army instruction 1014 two types of payment schemes were envisaged. Para 10 of the Instruction very clearly speaks that in case Sappers and Miners officer (now corps of Engineers) employed in MES shall be paid at MES rates and shall be born on MES strength and vice versa.
8. The two rates of payment shall clear the confusion and the service personnel relieved from the mixed organizations shall fulfill the deficiency of the officers in the fighting formations.
9. Service personnel sitting in Delhi, Pune , Bangalore etc. should be stripped off MSP and other service benefits while doing the duty of a normal civilian personnel.

The above steps have become inescapable to contain the situation from becoming bad to worse. Hope political masters and bureaucrats shall take the suggestions in a right spirit and implement the same at the earliest

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arun said on Thursday, October 16, 2008, 16:34

There are ONLY two solutions for problem—

FIRSTLY – GOVT. should reduce gap between PB3 & PB4. In PB4 peoples has got jump in salary more than 75% where as in PB3 it is hardly 15% TO 20% increase.which has never happened earlier.

SECONDALY – As suggested by fifth pay commison also all service personnel should be releived from mix organisation which will not only reduce deficiency of defence, it will also reduce comparison between civilian & army. presently defence personnel sitting in mixed organisation getting much more salary compared to civilian counter part where as constitution says equal pay for same work. this is right time to implent these things to avoid situation becomes worse & out of control for GOVT. POLITICAN & BUREAUCRATS SHOULD UNDER STANDS WHAT IS CONDITION OF CIVILIANS WORKING IN MIXED ORGANISATION THOSE WHO ARE NOT ABLE TO SPEAK…. IMMEDIATE STEPS SHOULD BE TAKEN TO MAKE ALL MIXED ORGANISATION ONLY FOR CIVILIAN WHICH IS ONLY SOLUTION OF PROBLEM AS SUGGESTED BY FIFTH PAY COMMISON OR OTHERWISE ALL DEFENCE PERSONNEL WORKING IN MIXED ORGANISATION SHOULD BE CONVERTED IN TO CIVILIAN HAVING SALARY EQUAL TO CIVILIAN COUNTER PART.

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NK Reply:
March 2nd, 2010 at 11:08 am
Civilians and working??? When do your guys work? U come to office at 1030 and leave by 4:30. And u work (!!!) on saturdays so that u get OVERTIME. As regards orgs with mixed manning I think ur suggestion to send service offrs back is fantastic…atleast every one will come to know about the calibre of civilian officers. At the same time the service conditions and terms of service of the defence must be made in line with CCS Rules so that we too can UNDERGO the HRADSHIPS that u ppl undergo!!

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KTS said on Thursday, October 16, 2008, 20:57

Not surpsrised by the statements made above. It is obvious that overall view is lacking. India will never become like Pakistan or Bangladesh, dont worry, our Armed forces clearly know what they are supposed to do. In no way it can be termed as “Mutiny” as our Armed forces are quite disciplined but now has the guts to point out injustice. Armed forces are not asking for superioruty here but merely demanding parity with civilian and paramilitary forces. The recommendation of the earlier committe has probably unintentionally ignored Armed Forces’s demand for parity. It is high time that proper representation by Armed Forces is ensured in future Pay Commissions to avoid situations like this.Now it is up to the Ministerial committe to correct the mistake which surely they will correct.

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Col J K Hasija (Retd) said on Thursday, October 16, 2008, 23:22

Ref comment by MKS. This is most cock-eyed suggestion I have ever seen/ heard during my life time. A lot of service/ beaurocratic muddy water has gone past the sane bridge so far as the supermacy tussle between the two is concerned. Therefore, the first thing we need to do is to break the present status-quo of the chain of command concerning defence forces vis-a-vis the civilian control. And, it should be done in a manner, so as not to upset the apple cart. The aim being, to restore lost/snached status of the defence forces, while keeping a pragmatic control in place for the civilian political rulers of the day. The question is, how can this be achieved? The GOM needs to find answer to this tricky question, otherwise, there could be trouble in the future.

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Wg Cdr K Premchandran, Retd said on Friday, October 17, 2008, 9:08

Ref comments by MKS. I am in 100% aggreement with Col Hasija. I think MKS has no clue about the working and the ethos of the Indian Armed Forces. Let’s make it clear there is no mutiny as of now….. but it may lead to one if his stupid suggestions are implemented. Let us never reach that situation.

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sachus said on Friday, October 17, 2008, 22:06

Well the comment by mks is uncalled for.To understand our armed forces such mean mentality is not sufficient.Since our soldiers have been doing their jobs without a fuzz,it is only just becuse of that you & me are enjoying our freedom & even posting our comments so freely.Pl do not malign our soldiers by compering them to people not that worth.Mr.MKS if u do not understand the living & job condition of our soldiers try to first get a proper insight into that before posting suh uncalled blogs.I’m proud to be a soldier’s wife & after seeing the work culture of our armed forces,i yearn if our civil government persons show at least one fourth sincerity in their jobs the country would become a paradise to live in.Sad that we have people like Mr.MKS who do not recognise the sacrifice of our soldiers.

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Lt Col (Dr) Manoj Gupta (retd) said on Saturday, October 18, 2008, 8:42

Ref note above, i think all personnel of India, should serve in uniform for certain period, then only they will understand the job being done by forces under various extremes of climatic condition which cannot be compared sitting in Air Condition chambers. You cannot decide on the plite of a hungry man while having Kaju and Kismis. A Country men who does not respect its armed forces has got no right to make any comment what so ever.

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Prerna Mishra said on Saturday, October 18, 2008, 9:53

Mr MKS ! You seem to be one of those who can just write English probably. Please try and understand the subject, you want to comment upon before you put your pen to paper. You seem to have no knowledge of your Defence forces. Just because you have freedom to say anything (Stupid), abstain from making such ridiculous statements. I am extremely surprised to find person like you who shoots from the hip.

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menon said on Saturday, October 18, 2008, 10:56

The IAS is now trying to instigate the CPOs and PMF to pull down the Armed Forces. The Civil services should be clubbed as one and called the ICS (Indian Civil Services) which will include all services like the IAS, IPS, MES, DRDO, CPOs, PMF, IRS, IAAS, State PCS etc. They should be governed by one rule for Promotions, Service conditions etc.
Why have this discrimination where the IAS takes the cake and eats it too. In fact the Civil services should be job specific. For e.g. those dealing with civic services like the present District Administrator or Collectors as we like to call them should by in one stream where they join and serve till retirement in the Civic Services Stream. A State Cadre officer becomes a Collector after 25 years whereas an IAS officer becomes one in 13/14 years with lesser district administration experience and competence. Those in the Health Services cadre should join and retire in the same service. We should stop these fly by night IAS officers who flit around popping up as heads of different ministries with absolutely no subject knowledge
In fact the CPOs and PMFs are the dumping grounds for Senior IPS officers and hence the cadre officers do not get Senior promotions – yet they have represented against the up gradation of Lt Cols which clearly indicates that this is motivated by the civil bureaucrats and not the handy work of the poor PMF/CPOs who get filtered at DIG level.

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Vinod said on Saturday, October 18, 2008, 16:40

MKS was probably under the effect of intoxicants when he wrote whatever he could and thereafter once he regained sense he seems to be ashamed of himself so much that he is not having courage to reply to any of the responses published after his irrelevant musings.

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PKS said on Saturday, October 18, 2008, 20:22

i ve heard this discussion about this egg and chicken story of civil vs defence one upmanship. i ve few questions which wud explain why this situation :

1. how many civilians wud like to face a bullet for 6000 MSP?
2. how many people wud risk hardships of military life? everytime civil administration has failed, armed forces are called in to do the job.
3. the stalwarts of india like amitabh bachan, APJ Kalam etc have been rejected by SSBs as not suitable for armed forces.
4. the officers take split second decisions which risk his own life and life of men under him and that too not in an airconditioned room like civilian counterparts.
5. in india, what armed forces get in return for facing kargil etc…. poor promotion avenues. on civil side everyone becomed Jt secy in 16 years and one get pay scale of PB3 after 16 years of service in armed forces.
6. why sud a bright guy join armed forces to risk his life, when a chap in call center gets more than him at the time of joining.

plz ponder over these questions and situation would become very clear….

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dev said on Sunday, October 19, 2008, 12:51

Gentleman please wait and watch…no one has the guts to compare our brave armed forces with Police etc…..Defence forces live in the heart of our countrymen…..no body else dwell there…niether police walahs nor the babus…leave aside our politicians.Defence forces deserve best of the best and they WILLLLLL get it irrespective of sabotaging designs by our BABUS.Dirty game being played by some dirty people…but let me tell you…..time of reckoning has come…..And these babus will be faceless as they stand exposed in the eyes of whole nation.

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dev said on Sunday, October 19, 2008, 12:58

NO ONE…NOT A SINGLE PERSON IN THIS GREAT NATION WILL SAY I AM PROUD OF MY POLICE BUT 110 CRORE WILL SING IN UNISON THAT WE ARE PROUD OF OUR DEFENCE FORCES…..ARE YOU LISTENING POLICE WALAHA…..DEMANDING PARITY…AND THE BABUS WHO ARE PLAYING A DIRTIEST POSSIBLE GAME CALLED HEINOUS CARDS.

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aniket said on Sunday, October 19, 2008, 17:02

Indian Army is well known for its ethos “Service before Self” but for the first time in the history of Independent India, by challenging the Cabinet decision on implementation of Sixth Central Pay Commission (SCPC) recommendations, Armed Forces have reversed their ethos. The issue has also gained National importance due to media hype with distorted facts and figures (media management). One of the core issues is with regards to pay and parity of Lt Cols and equivalent. It is learnt from the print as well as electronic media that they have been downgraded by not fixing their pay at par with that of civilian Directors.

2. The issue in question has two dimensions, firstly – higher pay for Lt Cols and secondly for parity. There is no denying that the people in Services deserve better compensation compared to their civilian counterparts for reasons known to all. Successive pay commissions have accordingly maintained the edge for defence personnel by granting hefty benefits which are not granted to their civilian counterparts, such as “MSP, Rank Pay, Free Ration, Disturbance allowances, Operation Allowances, Kit Maintenance Allowances, Technical Pay, three months leave, etc. Certain other allowances and facilities are also granted to Armed forces on account of special and unique service conditions. It is pertinent to mention that these benefits remain unaffected even when they are posted to other than core duties. It would be crystal clear if these hefty benefits are weighed in terms of money (Cost To Organisation), then they would be drawing much much more than that of a civilian counterpart. Thus the issue of pay no more exists as voiced now by the three Service Chiefs as part of their damage control mission.

3. The issue now remains is the parity. An impression has been created by the Media as if Lt Cols and equivalents of Armed forces are too senior and competent to civilian Directors in the Ministry of Defence. In this connection the following facts are submitted.

(a) Prior to 6CPC the pay scales of civilian Directors and Lt Cols were as under:-

Civilian Director Rs 14300-18300

Lt Col Rs 13500-17100 (It includes the disturbance allowance as reflected in Para 2.3.6 in page No 72 of 6CPC report.)

As per laid down policy of Government of India the terminal end value of the scale determines the seniority. The fact remains that pay scale of Lt Col was Rs 13500-17100 +1600 rank pay and not Rs 15100-18600 as being made out mischievously. The Lt Cols have been correctly shown equivalent to Joint Director (Rs 12000-16500) by 6CPC on page 74 of their report. The same relativity was given by earlier Pay Commissions also as mentioned by 6CPC in their report on page 73. It is evident from above that the civilian Directors are superior to Lt Cols.

(b) As per Armed Services own order (AO 8/85), Cols are working in posts tenable by Directors and Lt Cols in posts tenable by Jt Directors. Similarly as per Air HQ letter No. AirHQ/20701/792/Org. dt 09 Mar 2003, Gp Capts are working as Directors and Wing Commanders are working as Jt Directors. Same is the status of officers working in NHQ as per Naval HQ letter No. VCNS/101/T-memo/2003 dt 12 Sep 2003. It is thus obvious that Lt Cols have been working as Joint Directors and not Directors.

(c) Consequent to restructuring of Armed Forces by AV Singh committee the Army officers are given automatic time bound promotions from the rank of Lieutenant to Lt Col vide GOI, MOD letter No. 18(1)/2004-D(G.S.-1) dt 21 Dec 2004. This has enabled the Army officers to wear the rank of Lt Col on completion of 13 years of service, without facing even a single selection board. The service of thirteen years includes four years of their initial training period. Thus the effective service required for promotion to Lt Col rank is nine years only, which is same as minimum eligibility required for a civilian officer to become a Joint Director that too after facing selection board at all levels and vacancy based not time scale promotions. Therefore, Lt Col is at most at par with a civilian Joint Director only.

(d) The Army Officers of Lt Cols are also posted as Garrison Engineers and Dy Commander Works Engineer based on AV Singh Committee Report. Both the posts are tenable by a Civilian Deputy Director in the pay scale of Rs. 10,000-15,200. This shows that the Lt Cols in MES are posted against vacancy of Dy Directors and Jt Directors.

(e) The Army officers are always posted in Departments like Military Engineer Services (MES), Border Road Organisation (BRO), etc. at higher post than their legitimate level. For example, in MES a Brigadier is posted as Chief Engineer (CE) which is tenable by a SAG Level Officer, a Col is posted as Additional Chief Engineer (ACE) which is tenable by a Principal Director. This illegitimate posting has not only been causing ripples in the organization but also has made them to claim the posts legitimately. They have constantly been treating civilian officers, who are better qualified and much more experienced for the job, very unfairly in general and in particular in MES. In fact armed forces want dilution of civilian ranks by equating senior civilian officers to their junior ranks.

(f) As for Para military forces, by falsely projecting Lt Cols as equivalents of Commandants in Para Military Forces/Directors, they are misleading the Govt. Lt Cols are in reality, neither commanding a battalion nor authorised to put on the rank badges of a Commandant (Col Equivalent). From where this notion of “extant parity” has come is a big mystery, when there is actually none. Post implementation of the A V Singh Committee report most of the Lt Cols are actually glorified Majors performing the duties of Company Commanders. Functionally it is the job of an Assistant Commandant (Capt) in CPMFs. The armed forces should be thankful that SCPC has been very liberal to them by giving them a slew of allowances as compared to their civilian counterparts. The Army is only getting better at PR and media blitzkrieg, which is a cause of serious concern.

4. The issue of parity or the so called equivalency in MES was discussed, deliberated and decided after a prolonged persuasion over a decade and the Presidential Order of redesignation was issued vide MOD No 6/14/2001/D(Wks) dated 17 Nov 2003, under which the SEs in the scale of Rs 14300-18300 have been redesignated as Directors at par with Cols. Also the EEs in the scale of Rs 12000-16500 have been redesignated as Jt Directors at par with Lt Cols. The same has also been ratified in case of BRO vide GOI ID No BRDB/06/86/98-GE-1 dated 03 Jan 2005 which has still not been implemented in BRO inspite of court intervention. This equation has now been further strengthened by the SCPC by introducing the concept of Grade Pay.

5. It can be easily concluded from above that the issue of pay and parity of Lt Cols and equivalent with that of civilian Directors is not a genuine demand and is against all logic and rational. It appears that the Armed Forces in connivance with the Media are deriving sympathy and emotional blackmail to legitimate themselves and to dominate their legitimate senior civilian officers.

6. At the time of second cadre review in Army in1985, all posts of Lt Col like unit commanders, were made tenable by Colonel. Posting of a Lt Col to Paramilitary organization was not touched by second cadre review as these are Ex-cadre appointments. Army is trying to take advantage of the situation. The logical solution of the alleged disparity is that all post tenable by a Lt Col in Paramilitary organisation may be made tenable by a Col.
7. From above it can be concluded that ordes of 6cpc & govt. is correct as far as level / rank pay of lt. col is consiorned. However issue regarding timly upgradition / ACP for all cader civilian & army personnel shall be considered IMMEDIATELY by GOVT./ GOM keeping sallary of all govt. emploes same with reference to time so that all personnel GP A officers /ARMY Personnel can get same salary, in addition to allowance as per service conditions & dissatisfaction / superiority between caders can be reduced. GCONNECT IS REQUESTED TO CONVEY THESE POINTS TO GOM / GOVT.

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Col J K Hasija (Retd) said on Monday, October 20, 2008, 3:00

Wg Cdr K Premchanderan is right when he says that there is nothing like even a thought of a mutiny in our defence forces. I know our men and women of the defence forces. They will never do it. Indian forces are a dignified, disciplined lot. When all this started, our bureaucracy started this kind of canard to confuse the issue so that the logic remains tied up in knots. This is how they function. We all know it. So the question is, how should the situation be tackled. I foresee a great state of confrontation emerging in the near future, as even the CPMF have also started to play into the hands of the ” babus”. The GOM must consider this very seriously. It is strongly suggested that as elected leaders of this nation, it is time they start to take responsibility in this very serious matter, lest it may take an unforeseen ugly turn.

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dev said on Monday, October 20, 2008, 8:36

@ Aniket…………You are repeating the same old story of babus….there is no substance in what you threw here.Ltcols had been drawing more pay than your so called directors.And who told you that LtCols are not commanding units….please get your facts together…almost 30% units in the armed forces are still commanded by Armed forces today….so please do not try to become a problem solver.You ought to learn first before advising the Govt.

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dev said on Monday, October 20, 2008, 8:38

In my above response Fifth line instead of Armed Forces…please read LtCols.Error is regretted.

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brave heart said on Monday, October 20, 2008, 8:40

The Armed Forces and the Police are just not comparable.You ask any Indian about his opinion regarding the police. The answer would be “they are just trained to take bribes….thats all.” On the contrary the Foujis are still sonsidered as the most patriotic of our countrymen.

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Kool keg said on Monday, October 20, 2008, 8:43

I think Anikhet is also intoxicated. He must have consumed too much of Cheap Rum from some poor fouji.

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Maj (Retd)Shyam Sharma said on Monday, October 20, 2008, 12:58

Dear Countymen, India has been and will continue to remain a strong democratic nation. We all agree that to strengthen our democratic integrity we MUST have strong defence forces and stroger economy with accountable and honest administartin ( political and executive). With due respect to all, the debate of sueriority/status/pay parity for defence forces will siege to exist if our political-bureaucratic offices become accountable and honest in understanding core democratic issues of Indian citizens- as on date there is no ray of hope visible to an avrage citizen with daily struggle for simple and decent living made hell by so called democratic institutions vested with our civil servants ( bureaucracy, police forces and with due respect even middle and lower judiciary), but entire India speaks very high of armed forces in one voice (this includes good number of our honest and accountable civil servants). This is a hard fact and THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH, no argument/counter argument can veil. Then, let the GOM consider and resolve an important issue concerning our trusted , accountable, totally secular and apolitical organisiation (named Armed Forces of India) of out great country. If some of our civil servants still differ, then let the subject (whether Armed Forces be the most paid and highest in degree of social protocol precedence of Indian state ?) be put to vote by the the citizens of India in the next general election in 2009, with one line question printed at the top of the ballot paper/ electronic voting machine display( a nil extra cost proposal). Let the public decide what is good for this nation, those not agreeing to this democratic mode of decision seeking will be exposed and real face of dictators in the garb of civil servants and politicians will be exposed.

Besides, there is no doubt that the heads of army , navy and airforce
should urgently look into ways and means of trimming of the irrelevant peace time units and logistics organisation carried forward since world War II era, to save on very high cost to the exchequer and use this saving in making our war machines in tune with technological pace of modern world. Having served in armed forces for almost two decades(volutarily retired post Kargil) , I can say with certainty that our forces do carry lot of unwanted wieght of extra men/women and logistics elements no longer relevant in modern armies. Armed forces MUST learn to keep own house in tune with economic affordability of the nation and get out of undesirable frills attached/ carried as part of Btitish legacy (sperficial status symbols that have a high cost attached in today’s context-for exampke, a contingent of 2×6 or 1×3 guards in flag houses and a posse of orderlies for may be just a flag officer and his wife). Please no comparison with civil officers on this front as they may have much more(by whatever means) than what an armed forces flag officer gets, because this is not a comparison for false superiotiy/status symbol in a country having millions of children and adults struggling for basic food, shelter, healthcare and education. We should learn to save for the economic prosperity of our downtrodden countymen without any compromise on strong defence forces (with well paid, socially respected, highly talenetd young officers/leadrers with modern war machines under command). With this the Indian Democracy will be on top of the world.

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ashwani said on Monday, October 20, 2008, 14:44

DEar Aniket Please get the facts correctl 1. 13 year service for promotion does,nt include training period of 4 years In fact there is different training period for different catagories depending on qualification at the intake level 2 Rank Pay has now been done away with for Officers and is now amalagamated in MSP .It implies our existing pay is being bifurcated and aportion is being served in a different plate 3 SCPC was entrusted with the task of revising the pay and not for deciding /modifying the table of precedence. The precedence/parity could have been sorted out prior to SCPC if required. Obviously this fair play did,nt suit the malafide designs of IAS lobby.4 Why at the first place a separate Pay Commission for Services was not ordered This would have taken into consideration all the elements that you have mentioned which are bothering sick minds.5 InArmy we command men into battle and not manage them.Your concept of Cost analaysiscan work only in a production unit,Please apply this to Babus and workout the cost of file pushing. to the country. 6 Mr Fernandes had declared that he will send his Babus to to the forward areas . What happened to that??. 7 Working ethos , culture and conditions are completely different as compared to civilian counterparts.So if we are asking for a separate Pay Commission,It is fully justified.Leave aside that. Forces were not even allowed to make a direct presentation to SCPC. Why are you scared? 8 You retire him at the age between 40– 54 years and not even think of compensating him You do that to keep Your Army (If you think it is your Army)young.Would it not be fair togive him enhanced rate of pension (60 to 80% of last Pay) 9 In Army there are 10 ranks from 2/Lt to General as compared to4 or 5 in Civil. So there is a need to bracket the Army Ranks and Civil appointments and not work on one to one comparison. 10 Since we still have craze for foreign stuff, why not try to see what is happening in other Countries ( Iam not saying Pak or or other Military ruled countries)

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alok said on Monday, October 20, 2008, 16:32

comments given by aniket is eye openrer –: In my openion there are only following solution to problem FIRSTLY –: (a) Govt. should consider total emoulments given to individuals as COST TO GOVT. like in case of private company . It will clearly indicate that ARMY personnel in mixed organisation are getting much more emoulments than CIVILIAN counter parts. ARMY personnel should be given allowances only for CORE DUTY & repeat not for serving in mixed organisation in peace. As such solution for problem is only to send back army personnel in there units as suggested by fifth pay commison in certain cases there by getting following advantages —: (1) Saving to govt. in terms of money by paying less to civilian in terms of allowances for same amount of work. (2) No comparison between ARMY & CIVILIAN / OTHERS . There by reducing problem to govt. in future regarding superiority. (3) By keeping ARMY personnels in units, ARMY can ensure proper administration / discipline in there personnel which is not being seen now due to mixed culture in out side army regular appointments. (4) Reducing deficiency in armed forces & services can be utilised for only that work for which they have been trainned. SECONDLY –: (b) In present sixth pay commison in PB 4 category personnel has got jump of more than 60% where as in case of PB 3 it is hardly 10 to 15 %. This has also created unrest in all officers of PB 3 category, wheather ARMY or CIVILIAN. HIKE IN SALARY SHOULD BE UNIFOM FOR ALL CADERS OF OFFICERS. IMMEDIATE STEPS ARE REQUIRED TO BE TAKEN TO ENSURE UNIFORM INCREASE IN SALARY. FINALLY —: (c) UNIFORM RULE SHOULD BE MADE FOR ALL CIVILIAN , & AS WELL AS FOR ALL ARMY & PARA MILITARY FORCES IN TERMS OF PAY & ASSURED CARRIER PROMOTION THERE BY REDUCING DIFFERENCES AMONG ORGANISATIONS.

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Shahrukh said on Monday, October 20, 2008, 17:11

@Kool Keg I completely agree with Aniket as the facts provided by him are correctly uptodate and provide the correct insight into the Problem. n ya regarding your Comment the say right “TRUTH IS ALWAYS BITTER”.
n 1 more thin i guess Kool Keg hasn’t red the article by Aniket completely otherwise he wouldn’t have spelt the name “Aniket” wrongly “atleast” if he doesn’t have any other points to putforth.

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dev said on Monday, October 20, 2008, 20:32

@ shahrukh………..

Hope your spelling is correct……?Are u a babu…or a police walah..?

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Col J K Hasija (Retd) said on Monday, October 20, 2008, 20:54

Dear Aniket, You are so clog headed that you do not fully understand the ethos of our defence forces serving the mother land. You just cannot comprehend what all they do, day in and day out, located in far off places. Let me tell you, you wont even last one hour serving at a forward post located in Tundhar sector in J& K even if we gave you ten times, the free rations that you are talking about, and for good measures, a case of rum thrown in as a bonus. So, what do you say? Would you like take the challange or do you think, you would be better off coozying around with the ” babus” down here. The choice is yours. You may change your views, if you do. Or else, you may remain clog headed, ever after.

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Dr Rajesh said on Monday, October 20, 2008, 21:21

Hello to everyone,

Incidentally I got to see the interestin blog, and couldn’t resist posting my opinion though I am having 4 yrs of service in Army Medical Corps.

1. Firstly let me introduce myself- I am am Young Capt joined armed foces way back in 1998 in AFMC, rejecting the offers from NIT (Bhopal) to do BE(IT), CBSE PMT (Rank 202-didnt attend counselling), MP PMT (Rank-11). I had joined AFMC against wishes of my parents, relatives and frens all of them saying I am a fool rejecting an easy and promising life for a career in Armed Forces. But that time I had so much pride and strong belief about my decision to join AF.

2. 10 years later I know the amount of hard work or talent required to become an IAS/ rich NRI/ Cardiologist in Apollo is nothing great which a medico from AFMC doesnt have. Many of the infantry/arty/armoured offr are no less (Ex is one of the Capt who lost his hand in a blast in CI-Ops and boarded out of army got through IIMA and ISB-Hyd, and now will be earning millions/yr)
3. Many of my close relatives are sr IAS and IPS and yes MES offrs too, and let me tell you the way the eat the country by taking bribes blindly with no ethics/consciousness. They have just lost insight into right/wrong in the lust of “Rupayia”. 4. Accepted, they live in that atmosphere, and even if they want to be clean they cant do it and wont survive. its so much of dirt there, it will take ages by god himself to clean them up.
5. But coming back to the point a young, talented and bright man joins Officers’ academy of armed forces, he joins it for the pride and honour leave apart money. But when he raelizes its the money by which he’s compared everywhere, let it be among civilain freiens, family members or relatives. he feels sad.

6. If you talk about earnings, an army officer can not be compared (even 6cpc increases their pay by 4 times- which we really dont want), with the black money earnings of any civilian offr of same status let it be MES, IAS or IPS. What we want is only our part of respect and unfortunately respect is give based on only 2 aspects- your status in terms of power nad money, irresepective of the manner you earn it.( One of my uncle who was civil engr, expelled from state govt, still carries himself with high prestige and respect, as people give him this status in society as he has got money, irrespective of the way he has earned it.). In armed forces, corruption is very limited and whoever is caught is court-martialled, and doesnt retain any moral reason to show his face to anyone including family members. Moreover, if this corruption is not controlled beacause of low moral values among AF personnel, it may cost value which no-one can imagine. So by noway, corruption can be allowed to creep in the armed forces.

7. At the end, I’d like to summarise that its not the money for which we armed forces people are hungry, but its the respect and honour for which we work, we sacrifice ourselves, we sacrifice our families, knowingly go into the mouth of death to protect the nation. But if at the back, our families have to suffer discrimnation based on economic status then Sorry, this country and its people are not worth served by our soldiers.

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asdf said on Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 12:43

The issue is Lt Col were equal to civilian directrs or not.In the arguments, the foujis and ex foujis talk about the sacrifices and the difficulties in the forward ares. No body denies it. On this logic all Army Personnel of allranks should be in PB4.

In MES, the GEs , DCWEs, Some SBSOs are Lt Colsworking under Civilian SE ( equal to Directors). The argument that the Lt Col are equal to directors is illogical. If Army Wants to ensure that Lt Col Are equal to Civilian SE ( equal to Directors), Army shouls post Lt col as CWEs and Maj as GE, DCWEs, SBSOs etc. The rules are being made according to their requirements with out any logic.

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Shahrukh said on Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 18:57

@dev
well i m the President what more??

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Shahrukh said on Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 19:01

and i think the problem is being looked upon more on emotional grounds rather than on facts!

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Kool keg said on Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 20:32

Shahrukh, you stick to your acting…..you would be betteroff there.

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dev said on Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 22:09

@ shahrukh

And u…..not even emotional……..what a tragedy of your own making.People like you are the biggest manipulators…..but than this is your misfortune that u do not have respect for the people who protect the motherland from the vultures.God bless you!

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Prahari said on Wednesday, October 22, 2008, 18:13

kudos to anikhet for bringing out the facts. The army is one of the colonial vestiges that we are still having. Airforce and Navy are more pragmatic and have not got into this arguement ” we are the best”.

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agars said on Wednesday, October 22, 2008, 18:51

Dear commentators, It is a natural law that if you give something to someone he always demands more. The service of armed forces is Royal service to enjoy the life. Even facing hardship they allow their sons and daughter to join forces which is easily available with the well rooted corrupt system. There were discussion in a party of Armed force officers. Some officers were discussing about secs whether it is pleasure or labour. They couldn’t reach on concensus, so they called the serving sepoy and asked to him. The sepoy was innocent and replied” in my view secs should be pleasure otherwise sir you would have ordered me for that also. So Uniform officers join the force for pleasure and Royal service. The labour is done by PBORs. They claim that they are put during natural clamity is because they are well equiped to fight with such type of situation whethet these facilities are not available in civil. It is wrong to say that armed force officers are breaking stars from the sky. Lt Col must be placed in PB-4 alongwith their counterparts in civil which will fullfil the lust for money and pleasure. Jai Hind

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Prahari said on Wednesday, October 22, 2008, 18:56

This pay commission has shown our faujis true colors. The saying goes it’s all about money honey. They have trampled their brothers in arms and levelled all sort of allegations,spread lies in collusion with the media. What next army ?

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agars said on Wednesday, October 22, 2008, 19:11

Dear commentators, It is a natural law that if you give something to someone he always demands more. The service of armed forces is Royal service to enjoy the life. Even facing hardship they allow their sons and daughter to join forces which is easily available with the well rooted corrupt system. There were discussion in a party of Armed force officers. Some officers were discussing about secs whether it is pleasure or labour. They couldn’t reach on concensus, so they called the serving sepoy and asked to him. The sepoy was innocent and replied” in my view secs should be pleasure otherwise sir you would have ordered me for that also. So Uniform officers join the force for pleasure and Royal service. The labour is done by PBORs. They claim that they are put during natural clamity is because they are well equiped to fight with such type of situation whethet these facilities are not available in civil. It is wrong to say that armed force officers are breaking stars from the sky. Lt Col must be placed in PB-4 alongwith their counterparts in civil which will fullfil the lust for money and pleasure.

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dev said on Thursday, October 23, 2008, 8:11

@pahari………sick babu for sure? any one can make out…? And what are u doing….eating this nation and destroying its fabric.Come to glacier for a day my son and you see your *** frozen.You are playing very dirty here.Stop this nonsense.

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jay said on Sunday, October 26, 2008, 0:50

Aimless arguments and counter arguments have been made by various respondents above. The fact of the matter is that typical to most Indians, all respondents, specially aniket and mks have spewed venom without having researched the subject….u see we have in India a history of jaichands who after every few centuries are born in our land and they sell the country. Lets get some basic facts addressed: Why is it that beaurocrats, politicians, police force people, judiciary, business families and most other similar lot do not send their kids into the armed forces? Answer is simple all these professions offer ample scope to make money on the side through corruption. In armed forces there isno money…only pride. Fortunately the armed forces have woken to the reality that pride is of no use if money is not there. and now they have put their foot down in the most gentlemanly manner possible….unlike the rest who resort to hartals or simply find convenient options to profit through corrupt practices. Similar to 6th CPC, the 5th pay commission of Justice Pandian had come up with 48 anomolies….that time the armed forces accepted the pay commission but were promised redressal of the anomolies through “Govt. procedure” read “bring up on file”. In 10 years only 8 issues got corrected …the rest are still pending with the burocracy. All concerned people are advised to stop behaving like the proverbial indian crab and stop projecting half truths to deny the armed forces their dues. Let the Govt decide. No wonder the service chiefs insisted that the matter is considered by the ministers and not the babus. They have obviously lost faith in the babu’s just as the rest of the country too has….we all know the corrupt segments of our society. All the best to India’s future.

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naren said on Sunday, October 26, 2008, 9:10

One hundred percent agreement with jay…….the service chiefs have put their foot down in a very dignified manner……..hats off to them for having done so!!………. but will it ultimately bear fruits?….God knows……….

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k p c reddy said on Monday, October 27, 2008, 19:38

all r talking of disparity in pay of the senior officers with their counterparts in civil. But none is bothered about the injustice done to the Senior Non Commissioned Officers of all the three wings of Armed Forces. To illustrate the Seargents of IAF were in the scale of Rs 5000-100-6500 in the last CPC. Where As in the present CPC they are put in the Pay Band of Rs 5200-20200. The civilians and the civilian employees in Defence are put in the pay band of Rs 9300-34800 witha grade pay of Rs 4200. The grade pay for Seargents and their equivalent ranks are given a grade pay of Rs 2800. In the bargain the worst sufferrs are pre 2006 retirees as their basic pension will be fixed at the 50% of minimum basic pay plus grade pay of corresponding pay in which they retired as per one rank one pension scheme. This anomoly is required to be rectified the Committee apponted by the Hon.ble Prime Minister of India

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dev said on Monday, October 27, 2008, 20:55

@ Naren………….It will surely bear fruits.Babu’s stand exposed badly.They have no respect for anyone except for themselves.Its high time they are put in place.

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A patriotic soldier said on Thursday, October 30, 2008, 13:03

Like many of my fellow servicemen I am saddened by the recent developments with regard to the pay scale recommendations of Lieut Colonels. I also dread to think of the serious repercussions that this could have in the long run for this great country of ours. Civilian officers equivalent in rank to Lt Cols drawing the same pay scales till now have been placed in Pay Band 4 where as Lt Cols have been demoted to Pay band 3. Is this the punishment that the nation has given them for serving the country with selfless devotion dignity and honour often paying with their own lives.!! They are really a demoralized lot because of this. Please remember that these 19000 Officers form the cutting edge and teeth of our fighting forces. Many of them may even put in their papers in utter disgust. You can not afford to loose these officers.

Do you know that the middle level officers of the Pakistani Forces (who incidentally are very well paid) are all very very pro Taliban and they are the ones to become the corps commanders and Service chiefs of the Pakistan Army Tomorrow…They are itching to wage war against India.. In such a scenario can you afford to have demoralized officers on our own side? Don’t you want Our Country to be in safe hands tomorrow ? the powers that be ……. Please do some thing for our servicemen now ….before it is too late…..The country owes a lot to them. Even if you give it to them, many of them may not be in a position to enjoy the fruits for long ……..as some of those would be making the supreme sacrifice in the coming months and years….defending our borders against the country’s enemies…….. working in those inhospitable snow clad mountains up north which the politicians and those ‘baboos’ working in the Air conditioned plush offices in North /SouthBlock have not seen and may never see in the future. Having worked in those treacherous areas for long I know what it is like to be there!

I request the PrimeMinister/ others in the group of ministers to please issue necessary orders to do the needful now!!!…….for tomorrow may be too late…..

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b prasad said on Thursday, October 30, 2008, 15:14

It is very disheartening and disgusting that no senior Officer either serving or retired has raised a hue and cry of the gross injustice done to the seargents of Indian Air Force and their equivalent ranks in the Army and Navy in the sixth CPC. The details are well explained and expressed above. As the head of the family it is the prime and foremost responsibilty of the Chiefs and senior Officers of three wings of armed forces to look after the welfare and well being of the men working under them. Nobody has got any objection for raising their voice if any injustice is done to him/her. But the subordinate oficers’ expectation from their senior officers is that they should prefer the welfare of their men/work force under his control to their own welfare. Hence at least now they are required to fight for the rights of their subordinates

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vishy said on Thursday, October 30, 2008, 18:58

I am civilian n would like to scope my view from an indipendent standpoint. I personally feel, that we need to be realistic in our comparisions; Defence Vs civilian counterparts or corporate.The defence being the back bone of security fabric HAS TO BE GIVEN THE VERY BEST.We think of these poor souls only when there is Kargil, donate a days’ salary and feel elevated..listen to some patriotic songs and feel we are like them. As human memory is short…many including myself today will not be able to recall when the Kargil was fought….

What saddens me is the fact that the media which went gong ho on the issue last month is totally silent nowadays and is more concerned on what sachin did, will do , might be thinking…etc…cheap politics like that the one of Raj Thackaray assumes center stage…Shameful ,that I’m a citizen of this country where my country men who takes care of the nation’s security need to cry and justify their cause for a salary parity…Its about time we had compulsory military service for all citizens …..As the old adage goes …” to be a snake you need to crawl like one”…

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maj devakumar rn said on Friday, October 31, 2008, 7:59

aniket, you need to understand the facts before penning down. there is a need for people like you to be sent on compulsory military training to know the facts. you should know that in the ias the best becomes cabinet secretary and the worst becomes secretary. in armed forces who get in after a much tougher selectionprocess more than 50% retire as majors/lt cols. these are the people who really slog it out in field/high altitude/ci ops. has the govt given any hope to them after retirement at a fairly young age. people like you who have no clue give facts and figures to suit your aim please let the defence forces speak for themslves.your advice seem uncalled for

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Ayush said on Saturday, November 1, 2008, 22:55

View and counterview on the subject should be to bring out logical solutions to the problem projected. In the Government sector all sections look forward to the pay commission recommendations because the market forces are increasing the prices of commodities along with increased requirement of possissing the products which was not the case till few years back.

The comments offered by few are more to stop somebodys legitimate demands for increase in the salary. The same person should have asked for reduction in the salary structure of our NON PERFORMING ASSETS like bureaucrats / police forces who wre held accountable for listening to THEIR masters voice and the maximum punishment awarded for any offence committed is a postin (many times to better places). There is no doubt that the demand for increase in salary is required for all sectors but there are vested interests who are only trying to project forces as the demons for asking for the pay hike. The pyramidical structure in the forces is responsible for stagnation at certain levels for no fault of the person concerned whwereas the civilian counterparts keep on moving ahead with promotion and effectively getting higher pay bands when the complete nation knows that they hardly contribute much for the nation but look after the interests of themselves. The three member committee should have given their recommendations by the end of October but the bureaucratic and police pressure has it seems put an end to the whole episode of Forces finally conceeding to the recommendations of Justice Srikrishna who has done harm to the nation by creating Corporate world like variation in the Pay bands across the board.

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Siddy said on Saturday, November 1, 2008, 23:38

Well, All said n done. PB-3 is there 4 all armed forces Lt cols/Wg Cdrs/Cdrs. Mr. Pranab Mukerjee is too busy in external affaurs. ( thats a fact). But imagine a Wg cdr going 4 a flod relief sortie/ a major/ Lt. col going for relief to civilians, and a DSP rank officer is available to them for arrangements. Couldn’t be worse??? shame on US….we r the one in uniform, we know the value of the National Flag, the National Anthem, we r disciplined, we are absorbed in the forces thru a very organised and phased manner which involves NO BRIBES vis-a-vis IAS officials…….The Supreme Commander couldnt care less..She all too busy making trips all over India with her family of 55+…..lets take it folks, WE are the unfortunate lot… Do ur best n leave it to the babus and politicians… when u die, ur family will b promised a petrol pump and the works, but even after your 7th rebirth u wouldnt find the same…..THAT IS THE GREATNESS OF INDIA

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Kan said on Sunday, November 2, 2008, 7:56

I am amazed at the ignonimity of mks and for the fact that a person who can write English ca write just about anything. Tommorrow someone might just say that the beaureucrats are mole of Pakistan and it is the strategy of Pakistan and anti national forces to do such a thing. It is most unfortunate that an Indian thinks this way. mks needs to sit alone and do some unbiased introspection. few points need consideration.

Indian armed Forces are Loyal to nation, beaureucrats are not the nation, It is beaureucrats who have made the changes in the recommendation of the CPC, An impartial inquiry by the constitutional experts on the position of beaureucrats. Conviction rate of Politicians in corruption cases, mks may suggest another innovative way as to how the chiefs are supposed to represent the case to the govt, the anomalies of 5 CPC for defence are still not sorted out. I am still wondering what will be the take of an officer and jawan of armed forces working in the most inhospitable terrains if he knows that few Indians he guards actually think this way. ———These were most horroundous comments that i have read–kanu

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sk pillai said on Monday, November 3, 2008, 8:40

maximum service pension to be given to all subedar majors on completion of the maximum permissible term in that rank.however this may suitably be modified for those discharged early under compassionate grounds on self request, attaining maximum age,disability,disciplinary grounds etc.

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sk pillai said on Monday, November 3, 2008, 8:52

it is essential to go through the grievances and problems of the lowest rank and then upwards for adequate compensation wherein the needs of the higher ranks will be automatically taken care of. here we are in hurry to fix same msp and grade pay etc from sepoy to subedar major and fight for more in the higher ranks.is there no system exist to study and implement pay/pension scales to keep dignity of all ranks.

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santosh said on Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 21:41

Respected Sir,
1. I am serving Seargent of IAF of clerical tradesmen. I am planning to proceed on discharge shortly.
2. We really appreciate the pain and courage all the three chiefs had taken to resolve the issue of disparity with civil counterpart in respect of Lt Col & equivalent rank.
3. Sir, we the clerical tradesmen also face similar problem. Yes, but more interesting it is we the other ranks who are always more involved directly with the civilian than the Lt Col with their civil counterpart.
4. Sgt of clerical tradesmen are equal with office assistant of civil side vide GOI letter No. GOI/DGET-5/1/03-UG(01)(NCO) dated 04 Jun 03. I.e Sgt & below with 10 years of service are equivalent with office asst of civil.
5. Grade pay of Office Assistant is 4200 whereas that of Sgt is 2800. UDC is 2400 which is equal to Cpl as per the policy.
6. Promotion particularly in army is around 24 years to become Sgt. Entry level is same on both the side.
7. Sir, case may be taken up to increase the grade pay of Sgt & equivalent to 4200 so that all the benefit enjoyed by office assistant may be applicable to Sgt as henceforth grade pay will and are counted for all entitlement.
8. Your little pain for PBOR will definitely increase the morale of the force and their little happiness will bless all your family for happy life.
Thanking you.

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Khardongla said on Sunday, November 23, 2008, 9:21

SOME THING INTERESTING Panel seeks defence nominee on pay commission

Sandeep Dikshit

NEW DELHI: Taking note of the shortfall of over 13,000 officers in the armed forces and anomalies in the Fifth Pay Commission’s recommendations for them, the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence has recommended that a member of the Sixth Pay Commission be nominated from the defence forces.

The Defence Ministry had pointed out that the armed forces constituted 40 per cent of the Central employees, with their officers comprising the largest officer cadre, and this necessitated its nominee on the Pay Commission but the Finance Ministry turned down the request.

The parliamentary panel did not accept the reasoning that the “pay commission was an independent panel.” It did not accept the reasoning against having an armed force officer as a member convincing enough and listed several reasons why it should be done.

“Successive pay commissions have made service in the armed forces so unattractive that there is a deficiency of 13,000 officers. Between 2001 and 2004, over 2,000 officers applied to leave the Army. These included two Lieutenant Generals, 10 Major Generals and 84 Brigadiers. Against this, how many from the Indian Administrative Service and the Indian Police Service leave early?” it asked.

“Vacancies and additional requirements are increasing but the Ministry of Defence is facing difficulties in filling up of vacancies as talented youth is not coming forward to join the services. All difficult and hazardous tasks such as counter-insurgency and counter terrorism, rescue and relief operations during all kinds of disasters fall in the lap of the services. Yet the armed forces are always ignored when it comes to their pay and services.”

The Standing Committee found that of the 2,000-page Fifth Pay Commission report less than 50 were devoted to the armed forces. Of its 145-strong staff, the panel declined to take any from the armed forces though there were personnel drawn from varied cadres such as the postal services, the Border Security Force and the Indian Forest Service.

There were major anomalies in its recommendations, one of them being that it gave a Brigadier more pension than a Major General. It also removed the running pay board given by the previous Pay Commission to compensate for the limited promotions in the armed forces.

For the purpose of pension, the defence personnel were equated with civilian employees but the condition of 33 years of service to earn full pension stayed, placing the armed forces at a great disadvantage. Over 90 per cent of the defence personnel retire early and therefore do not fulfil the criteria of 33 years of service to gain full pension. As a result, a former sepoy gets less than half the pension of a retired peon.

Not only did the Fifth Pay Commission ignore the hardships of a career in the armed forces, it did not compensate them adequately for truncated careers, extremely limited promotions, long separations from families and risk to life and limb. In most democracies, these are termed as the X factor and adequately compensated.

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sky said on Sunday, November 23, 2008, 13:35

Issue is very simple which babus donot want to understand.Rank pay of the service officer is part of their basis pay.No arguement on that,it has been proved in the court of law. Add rank pay & bring the parity to where they stood before 6 cvc. Maintain status quo. CPC has no business to break the parity to the advantage of civilian brother who any way mint lot of money without any risk to life.Even if the services were unduly at advantageous position ,if that is the mind set, Cpc should have also brought down the speed with which IAS/IPS & Gp”A “civil services are promoted.It’s time the govt & babus start respecting the services, otherwise they could also reciprocate in the same manner.No one has ever changed the supermacy of IAS, then why services are being cut to the size of para-military.India ! do you want your ARMY to behave like paramilitary or want to recognise it as the final frontier when it comes to save/salvage you??? Unfortunately people of India can not vote on this account. I expect only sensible comments, if any.

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SGT MANOJ said on Thursday, November 27, 2008, 18:00

Dear MKS,
why dont you feel disparity done to armed forces ? just because they are given msp of rs. 2000/-. Please examine the following in respect of PBOR of IAF: -
(a)A LDC of clerical is recurited after matric but an airmen of admin trade is recuruied after PUC.
(b) LDC grade pay is 2000 as that of AC/LAC (NO DISPARITY)
(c) UDC grade pay is 2400 as that of Cpl (NO DISPARITY)
(d) Office assistant grade pay is 4200 whereas the Sgt grade pay is 2800.(DISPARITY)
(e) airmen of clerical trade with 10 years of service is made at part with office assistant as per Governemnt of India letter dated 1986 & 2006.
(f) Now, the admin staff is doing primiariy admin duties, catering duties, GTI duties and other conneced daily routine secoundary duties like range firing, seurity, qrt etc etc etc
(g) Seargetns of iaf are issued with a Govt of india letter stating the euqavalent with office assistant. BUT FOR GRADE PAY THEY ARE NOT MADE EQULALENT.
(H) OUR CHIEFS IS NOT BORTHERED TO SEE THIS PLIGHT OF PBOR SO AS THE BUERACRATS.
(J) PRACTICLLY, THE OFFICE ASSISTAMT IS WORKING WITH SGT OF IAF IN ALMOST ALL THE AIRFORCE BASE. IF YOUR CONTENTION TO BE APPLIED, THEN THE SGT SHOULD GET THE GRADE PAY OF 4200.
(K) DEAR MKS SIR, IF YOUR FIND ANY CORRECTNESS IN THIS PLEASE TAKE UP WITH GOVERNMENT.

FROM, SGT SUKU

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praveen said on Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 9:35

Politicians are achieving their aims. Heard anews that Bush was thrown shoes in Iraq. What next

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