Armed Forces Pay - New “pay anomalies”

Tagged with: 6cpc, 6th cpc, 6th pay commission, armed forces new pay scale, External affairs minister Pranb Muker, pay anomalies, three member committee

Sunday, November 2, 2008

This article is posted in 6CPC Matters category and has 212 Comments so far.

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As the Minister Mr.Pranab Mukherjee-led ministerial committee is grappling with armed forces’ pay-related grievances, the three Services have now taken a fresh controversy to A K Antony’s doors over “issues created” by Defence Ministry bureaucrats.

The Defence Ministry’s special instructions on the 6th Central Pay Commission notification, the Services say, have “back-stabbed” the armed forces personnel by introducing seven fresh “anomalies” last week.

The “anomalies” include re-defining of the military service pay and rank pay, which actually subverted the purpose for which the pay commission had recommended it in the first place, sources in the Services’ headquarters said here today.

“The Services headquarters approached Defence Minister Antony against the mischief and back-stabbing in the special instructions issued by the ministry officials and have sought removal of these provisions. The new anomalies are different from the four core issues that we raised earlier,” sources said.

“The changes in the definition and meaning of key pay commission recommendations have been done on the sly to deal a blow to the armed forces’ morale and to deny them their due,” they alleged.

The special instructions, issued by the Defence Ministry on the pay commission notification, was received by the armed forces on October 20.

Source : Economic Times (02-11-08)

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212 Responses to “Armed Forces Pay - New “pay anomalies””

chandy said on Monday, November 3, 2008, 8:32

shame on this govt. even its own babus care a dam for it. it is headed by a headless person.
k.jayaraman said on Monday, November 3, 2008, 10:03

Sir, After reading M.A.History one this clear, that any commim mittee appointed will take a minimum of 90 days to submit its report throughout the World so that the the the feelings of the affected people will get waterdown. The delays will make the people to accept whatever the increase is offered and at times the authorities may divert the attention of the affected people to other topic which may be given better importance with motivation. Only two happenings are real and corrupt free i.e. (1) natural rain gives water and fills all the tanks (2) without any help our t;rees are are growing and forest maintains its strength. So let us hope to get the result ;of the committee within another 30 days and its effect by another 30 days. Thankyou.
Raymonds said on Monday, November 3, 2008, 10:21

This is anabsolute buggers muddle…. MoD has ceased to exist as an organisation except for name sake…. If MoD is existing to promote interests of IDAS, CCs and AFHQS, MES and BRO as aginast the Armed Forces, then they have no moral rights to be dealing with the affairs of Armed Forces.

These third class degerates, as is evident from their actions, are hell bent on distroying a fine organisation and themselves….. so much so that that a GoM had to be appointed to sort out the issues…

Shame..
Shiv Rana said on Monday, November 3, 2008, 10:22

Appointment of GOM to look in to the genuine anomalies in the 6th CPC created by the corrupt Babus of the Indian Aram Services, is only a delaying tactic by the equally or more corrupt politicians of the country. At the end Armed Forces will lump it as it had after the anomalies raised in the 4th CPC which have not been addressed till now. Our “Service Chiefs” are weak in the name of discipline and our media, like the article of Shekhar Gupta of Indian Express makes it worse for the Armed Forces. All this because the independence we got very cheap, through Ahimsa. If every family had shed blood to get independence the people would have realised the value of the Armed Forces who keep them safe within the national boundry.
akashdeep said on Monday, November 3, 2008, 11:14

very sad thing that the country is playing with the sentiments of armed forces. if we have to fight for our rights within the country what motivation will we have to fight with enemies.we should make use of our strength as a vote bank and then see the difference.
SATYASAACH said on Monday, November 3, 2008, 12:25

Pay Row
Now, MoD lets down armed forces
Ajay Banerjee
Tribune News Service

New Delhi, November 1
Even as a high-level committee comprising three Cabinet ministers is examining the four “core issues” that the armed forces have raised after the Sixth Pay Commission report was released, a fresh controversy has erupted. The ministry of defence (MoD) and the forces are at loggerheads again over salary related issues that have cropped up in the past one week.

It all started on October 20 when the MoD’s special instructions to implement the pay commission reached the forces.

To their dismay, the forces have now found some anomalies in the special instructions that were not there in the Sixth Pay Commission report approved by the Cabinet and notified by the government. Angered at being “short-changed”, the chief of personnel officers committee (COPOC) of the three forces has shot a letter to the MoD asking it to remove seven aberrations that include the dilution of the provisions of the pay commission as approved by the Cabinet and in some cases restore the deleted portions. These are separate from the four core issues being examined by the ministerial committee headed by Pranab Mukherjee.

The adjutant general at present heads the COPOC that also comprises the personnel officers of the Air force and the Navy. Out of the many serious anomalies, the key ones are: the dilution of the definition of the military service pay; the subversion of the definition of rank pay and the fixing of the initial pay scale for Colonels and Brigadiers at a level that is lower than what is due.

The foremost issue is of the rank pay that will result in a lesser hike in wages of all officers. The adjutant general has pointed out that the Fourth Pay Commission onward the rank pay is counted part of the basic pay. This is the government policy to club the two increases, thus affecting the quantum of house rent allowance, travelling allowance and DA. Under new orders, the MoD has delinked the rank pay from the basic pay. Hence, effectively reducing the HRA, travelling allowances and DA for each officer.

In case of the military service pay (MSP), the Sixth Pay Commission explains it as “?compensation for difficulties specific to military life”. The MoD in its latest orders to implement the pay commission report refers it to as a type of hardship allowance to “security forces” in forward areas. The personnel officers have questioned as to why the definition of the MSP has not been adopted from the pay commission itself.

Furthermore, on the MSP, the pay commission says that “in case of employees drawing the same grade pay, the priority (for status) should be on the total emoluments, including non-practising allowance for doctors and the MSP for forces”.

The personnel chiefs have pointed out that the MoD has said the MSP shall not be linked to status and rank.

The initial pay fixation for Colonels and Brigadiers was to be done as per scale “S-25” of the pay commission. Under the new instructions, the Colonels and Brigadiers have been given scale “S-24” that is applicable to a grade that is lower in the civil ranks. This means the initial pay of a Colonel will be reduced by Rs 1,300 while a Brigadier will lose Rs 3,000.
rg kadam said on Monday, November 3, 2008, 13:08

It seems this time around country will have to pay hefty price for the criminal mischiefs of the currupt babus.
kartik said on Monday, November 3, 2008, 13:15

@rg kadam

Dhamki dena acchhi baat nanhi hai. kuch kar sako to kar ke dikhao
rg kadam said on Monday, November 3, 2008, 13:24

You seems to be an ignorant fool. The country is already suffering at the hands of IM, ISI, HuJI, ULFA because of your proffessional incompetance, currupt practices and divide and rule policies. Watch my word, you and your family cannot remain untouched from the turmoil unleashed on the countrymen by people like you. GOOD BYE.
Shiv Rana said on Monday, November 3, 2008, 13:35

Kartik’s comment above is like instigation, which should be avoided. Karthik, are you a defence personnel, serving orveteran???????? If not please do not muddle in the affairs of the Armed Forces without proper knowledge.
ask said on Monday, November 3, 2008, 16:27

For Mr Anthony,

Sir,How is it that these baboos of MoD are back stabbing & wanting to destroy the Armed Forces right under your nose?Have you lost control over these baboos gone berserk? Are they on payroll of the ISI & have been specifically tasked by it to degrade our mil potential or have they gone insane?We now have a situation where Armed Forces (Army,Navy & AF seperately & collectively) are ready to file cases against MoD in the courts of law!!!Thier actions must be investigated & those guilty must be punished.(not suspended/removed but punished)
Pran said on Monday, November 3, 2008, 16:34

With so much of unrest and anger it can only be a time bomb clicking 10…9…8…7
manoj said on Monday, November 3, 2008, 18:24

It appears either officers from armed forces are ignorant about rules or they just want to make hue and cry even without reading the document carefully..

for example one of the officer above has appended article from tribune which is givinh some defininition of MSP and based on this officers are agitated that civilian babus have published wrong SAI.

For information of all MSP has been defined in gazzeette SRO 1(E) dated 30 08 2008 and the same has been referred to in SAI..So it is beyond imagination how wrong has been done by babus as percieved by some of the ill or half informed officers.
Iwill request all to carefully read the document before blindly criticising any particular service..
rgk said on Monday, November 3, 2008, 18:34

Some joker on this blog was saying that army is no longer required and same job can be done better by police forces ( I really donnot know whether this person is in right state of mind or not ). For this moron’s information I am posting the extracts of the article written by Prakash Singh, IPS, Ex DG BSF. I quote ” The issue is not of empowering the police. It is of having a police which look up to the laws of the land and the Constitution of the country in the discharge of their functions. The harsh truth is that the police today are more concerned with carrying out the diktat of the executive rather than protecting the life and property of the common man” ( These fools will definitely understand oneday when they or their close family members who are dear to these corrupt babus suffer due to inaction of these incompetant police forces ). Mr Prakash Singh further states and I quote “The recruitment procedures also leave much to be desired. Unfortunately, it is tainted in most of the states. In UP, a scandal was unearthed in recruitments and 12 IPS officers were suspended. But unfortunately, follow- up action was not taken to its logical conclusion. The UP government does not have the courage to nail the political bigwigs who were at the root of the scam. A constable who pays to be recruited cannot be expected to be honest.It is like poisoning the roots. Anyone can see that the state police spokesmen are making contradictory claims and there is inadequate coordination among them. The stakes very high. The threat is getting magnified with every passing day. Our first line of defence has to strengthened. There is no room for any further delay”. These views are of one of the respected and honest IPS officer who has retired as DG of one of the paramillitary forces of the country. If the highest ranking IPS officer states that police forces of the country are corrupt, dishonest, unproffessional, not coordinated in its proffessional approach and need emergent reforms and these corrupt babus still want to replace defence services with such police forces, any right thinking man will advice them to seek thorough mental check up. Thank God, I am not in the company of this so called elite class.
beniwal said on Monday, November 3, 2008, 18:45

The latest MOD’s special instructions seems to be a part of strategy adopted by the Babus with two fold motives; 1. To divert the attention of the forces personnel from the core issues under the consideration of the cabinet ministers committe. 2. To create the wrong impression in the eyes of public at large that armed forces cannot be satisfied and they are in the habit of complaining on one or the other issue. Otherwise how could they issue instructions contrary to the recommendations of the CPC which were accepted by the government. But I am sure their design will be exposed and ultimately they will have to eat a humble pie. Media should see through their designs that they are hell bent to humiliate the armed forces pers.
Govind said on Monday, November 3, 2008, 18:51

Manoj Bau .can you please put SRO 1 (1) E Dt. 30/08/2008, on this site, since it is not available to independant readers like me.
yogee said on Monday, November 3, 2008, 20:05

Once babu always a babu. Whether in MoD or not. These guys deserved 2 be probed as they r the people of doubtful integrity
menon said on Monday, November 3, 2008, 20:09

Rank poay is a part of basic pay as defined by the 4th and 5th PCs. But now to subvert the fixation and prove a point the Babus have at this juncture craftifly initiated an SAI. At this hour after two pay commissions clarifying the staus of Rank pay there is no other deduction except that the SAI are malicious. A mischievious gazette on 30-08 puts even Loki to shame.
Raja said on Monday, November 3, 2008, 20:55

Very shame, all chiefs to put down their arms and put bangles on their hands. Sent them to Pakistan and learn something from Musharaf.
menon said on Monday, November 3, 2008, 21:28

Now the Babus are playing a delay game so that they can confuse the Netas and play more tricks.
vn said on Monday, November 3, 2008, 21:55

Why do you discount that some of the MOD officials may be on ISI/CIA pay rolls. In today’s world these are serious possibilities.
INDARMY said on Monday, November 3, 2008, 22:09

Manoj,

Its good that you have read the fineprint. You are absolutely correct there.Where you are wrong is that amed forces are getting agitated about something they havent read. Well we have read it and we are annoyed because CDA which is supposed to credit our pay as per SAI has not interpreted it the way it is spelt out in the gazette.In fact an illustration in SAI clearly says MSP will be a part of total pay even for calculating DA. Only place MSP will not be used will be for increments and for determining status. The salary slips however take MSP as an allowance and no DA has been given on it. When query was raised with CDA they replied that there interpretation is that it is an allowance and that too for field area. Now friend if I give you a regulation to pay a cadre and you refuse to read the correct interpretation and make your own one either it is deliberate or you are a moron. We feel it is deliberate because these people understand finance regulations much more than us and today pleading ignorance cannot absolve them of their fault. My honest request is that before you make a comment for the heck of it get your facts right lest you wish to add salt to the already bruised armyman who has no voice to give vent to his feelings.
INDARMY said on Monday, November 3, 2008, 22:12

Mr kadam it is difficult to stoop to your level. As long as discussions remain dignified it is fine. When something will happen and dont worry the way things are going something is bound to happen you can be rest assured the bite is worse than a bark.
INDARMY said on Monday, November 3, 2008, 22:14

sorry the previous one was meant for kartik actually when we decide to bite we can take on moving targets you see they taught us in the academy - ” mental mobility”
manoj said on Monday, November 3, 2008, 22:32

dear menon,

In SAI
rank pay has been added to basic pay and then multiplied by 1.86 to arrive at new pay.. so where is the discrepency.. abuse without a cause may not be justified
Indranil said on Monday, November 3, 2008, 22:55

Dear Citizens,

I like to ask all citizens of India: why are the Armed Forces personnel not getting their pay that is due to them? Have they become third rate citizens? Why can’t their children and families live a decent life? Or is it the right of corrupt politicians, babus, film stars or cricketers only?
SATYASAACH said on Tuesday, November 4, 2008, 8:48

SOURCE: Punjab seeks PM’s intervention

Express News Service
Posted: Nov 03, 2008 at 0516 hrs IST : http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/punjab-seeks-pms-intervention/380767/:
Mohali, November 02 The Punjab government, on Sunday, urged Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh to immediately intervene to resolve the pay issue of defence personnel in view of the recommendations of the Sixth Pay Commission, which had generated much anguish among the serving and retired personnel of the country’s Armed Forces.
Addressing an impressive gathering of ex-servicemen from five districts of the state in Mohali, Punjab Minister for Defence Services Welfare, Capt Kanwaljit Singh, announced to amend the present law provisions for the speedy disposal of land disputes involving ex-servicemen.

Capt Kanwaljit said soldiers of the Armed Forces were fighting on double fronts as India was facing internal and external threat, but their morale had come down drastically after the recommendations by the pay panel, removing the equality the armed personnel shared with their civil counterparts. “Soldiers fighting at tough battlefields are being discriminated against by the panel and so far the Centre has failed to resolve the issue,” the minister said, adding that the widespread anguish and despair in the armed forces was an alarming bell for the country.

He appealed the Prime Minister to immediately take up the matter, which he (Capt Kanwaljit) had earlier taken up with the Defence Minister.

Capt Kanwaljit said the SAD-BJP government in the state was taking care of the needs of the ex-servicemen and was committed to ensuring their well-being.

Recollecting that people from Punjab have always remained on the forefront of sacrificing for the country, the minister said to promote this trend and help the children of ex-servicemen, the Punjab government has opened four training institutes. These centres provide free training for preparatory exams of different fields, including NDA and others.

The minister said that the state government has decided to amend the policy regarding the provision of facilities to the families of the pre-1999 war heroes.

He said that Army was facing the enemy at home-front that was stronger than the external aggression and accordingly families of those soldiers who had been declared war casualty by the Ministry of Defence would get the benefit of this policy.

“We have instructed the deputy commissioners and senior superintendents of police in the state to give proper honour to the ex-servicemen,” he said, while warning that that any officials found guilty in the matter would be dealt with sternly.

Capt Kanwaljit urged for the institution of a federation, involving the groups of ex-servicemen, to take on a common goal of the welfare of ex-servicemen. A meeting of all groups would be convened in this regard, added Kanwaljit.

The Minister also gave away an appointment letter to the widow of a war hero besides distributing cheques of Rs 5 lakh each to 16 families of slain soldiers.
COl VT Venkatesh(Retd) said on Tuesday, November 4, 2008, 9:38

@manoj

For information of all MSP has been defined in gazzeette SRO 1(E) dated 30 08 2008 and the same has been referred to in SAI..So it is beyond imagination how wrong has been done by babus as percieved by some of the ill or half informed officers.
Iwill request all to carefully read the document before blindly criticising any particular service..

You have got all your facts wrong.PLease refer to page 374 of the 6 PC where it clearly lays down how pension is to be caluclated

Quoting from the rport ”
As discussed in Chapter 5.1, for PBORs, the
pension on completion of 15 years or more of recknonable
service will, from 1/1/2006, be computed at the rate of 50% of the
pay last drawn or average emoluments (including grade pay,
military service pay and classification pay), whichever is
beneficial ”

As you may be aware pension is calculated only on pay & not allowances & hence MSP is pay & not an allowance.

It is people like you who are ignorant & spread deliberate disinformation.You are the real ill informed person
kartik said on Tuesday, November 4, 2008, 9:49

@rg kadam and shiv rana

RM gave just gave one ghudki and none of chiefs has spoken even a single sentence till now. VCOAS said that what ever will be given will be a prasad for us. and for all those who think they can do something they should remember the events of IAF after last pay commission some of AF officers were just thrown by their own Air marshals just to protest.
@ indarmy jo bhonkte jyada hain kaat nahi paate.
Soldier said on Tuesday, November 4, 2008, 10:58

@ kartik
I think you don’t know how and in what condition, PM while sitting in USA formed the Committee of these three ministers, you better don’t know it, otherwise Shiver and Sweat will run down your Spine. A major major Catastrophe was avoided by PM, by announcing this GoM. Less said the better. I know your comments everywhere on all blogs. Please restrain. The same thing can be said in a different way with the same depth and gravity in meaning, rest its your choice
DEEPAK said on Tuesday, November 4, 2008, 11:26

@MANOJ..
dear menon,

In SAI
rank pay has been added to basic pay and then multiplied by 1.86 to arrive at new pay.. so where is the discrepency.. abuse without a cause may not be justified

——————- yes rank pay has been added to basic and multiplied with 1.86.. NOW TALLY THE PAY BAND IN WHICH LT COLS HAVE BEEN PUT. THEIR EQUIVALENCE COMES TO PB 4.. FOR A LT COL IT IS 13500+1600=15100.
DEEPAK
Khaki said on Tuesday, November 4, 2008, 11:36

MOD has atlast woken up and delinked rank pay from basic. The services have been taking this nation for a ride till now. Ok ,no grudges in giving rank pay but adding it to your basic and then drawing equivalance is absolute manipulation of facts. A DM is a very junior appointment for the IAS but can a CO equal a DM in terms of responsibility and management. So comparisons should not be drawn unneccesarily. When i read the blogs written by service officers i get dismayed by their vision and outlook. They have been falsly indoctrinated in their academies that they alone are men who matter in this country , rest are all corrupt incompetent and what not. This blinkered view shoul first be removed. Kudos to MOD for showing the OGs/blue/white their place. If their own ministry is coming up with this interpretation of rank pay then there must some substance to it. Also MSP should be given only to those posted in field areas
THINKING SOLDIER said on Tuesday, November 4, 2008, 11:52

KHAKI ARE YOU ON PAYROLL OF ISI OR SIMI OR JEHADIS WHICH HAVE A COMMON CAUSE OF DESTROYING THIS INDIAN ARMY TO ENSURE DESTRUCTION OF THIS GREAT NATION????
kartik said on Tuesday, November 4, 2008, 12:22

@ khaki
yes i fully agree with you not only this the academies should be disbanded and directly they should those boys officers so that they do not learn to say yes sir for everything and also they can save their mozo to use the guns to get their dues instead of saying yes sir for all nonsense. mind you it is because of their academies only which teach them wrong thing like not fighting for their dues. All Gens are from NDA only so let us disband NDA first then army also because this country can run peoples like you only
Sam said on Tuesday, November 4, 2008, 12:27

Dear Khaki,
Am really sorry but felt like laughing at your comparison of a DM with CO. I discount your comparison as lack of knowledge if you are not a Central Service Officer. But if you are one, the so called creamy knowledge servant of the nation, then god save the nation whose reins are with such so-called learned people who knows little about the importance and role of the Armed Forces.
SATYASAACH said on Tuesday, November 4, 2008, 12:30

Look at the definition of Rank Pay in Special Army Instruction (SAI) 2/S/98 :

2 (b) : “RANK PAY” means the pay admissible to an officer appropriate to the rank actually held, either in acting or substantive capacity, in addition to the pay in the revised scale. Rank Pay forms part of the basic pay.

And the definition in the recently issued SAI 2/S/08 :

3 (b) : “RANK PAY” means the Rank Pay admissible to Commissioned Officers of the three services.

Can you spot the difference ?

Now read this From TRIBUNE: http://www.tribuneindia.com/2008/20081024/nation.htm#17 :
Fresh row over pay orders
MoD delinks rank pay from basic pay
Vijay Mohan
Tribune News Service

Chandigarh, October 23
A fresh controversy appears to have erupted over orders issued by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) on revision of the pay scales of armed forces personnel consequent to the implementation of the Sixth Pay Commission recommendations.

In new special army instructions (SAIs) issued in the past week, the MoD has modified the definition of rank pay earlier admissible to commissioned officers and has de-linked it from the basic pay despite the fact that SAIs issued after the fourth and the fifth pay commissions define rank pay as “part of basic pay”.

Legal experts say that the fresh move of the MoD to de-link rank pay is not only in contravention of approved recommendations of the Union Cabinet, but also against the spirit of the MoD’s own earlier SAIs and court orders.

The revised definition, sources claim, would adversely impact the status of armed
forces officers.

Para 3 (b) of the SAI 2/S/08 issued on October 11, 2008, terms rank pay only as “rank pay admissible to commissioned officers of the three services”.

Earlier, SAI 2/S/87 and SAI 2/S/98 also mentioned that rank pay forms a part
of the basic pay. It is learnt that the service headquarters is taking up the issue
with the MoD.

The new “disparity” has come to light even as a high-level committee comprising three Cabinet ministers constituted to look into pay-related issues raised by the armed forces is yet to submit its report.

According to officers, rank pay was carved out of basic pay of military officers by the Fourth Pay Commission, when a common scale was introduced for all ranks from second Lieutenant till Brigadier.

The rank pay was added into the basic pay as a differentiating factor. The addition of rank pay as a part of basic pay was approved by the Union Cabinet and also notified in SAIs issued by the MoD.

Sources claimed that there were still instances wherein civilian officers posted to the MoD, by their own interpretation, refused to add rank pay into basic pay for status comparison purposes, despite the fact that courts of law had also ruled rank pay to be an integral part of basic pay.

While the tussle over the status of Lieutenant Colonel and Colonel vis-à-vis equivalent civilian officers continues, the Jodhpur and Chennai Benches of the Central Administrative Tribunal have, in a case filed by MES officers, already held that directors and superintending engineers of the Central Engineering Services are junior to full Colonels and are equivalent to Lieutenant Colonels.

In the meantime, the Central government has started implementing pay progression parity for all Group A organised civilian officers with the IAS but the defence services have been kept outside the purview of the new scheme.

The pay achieved by 100 per cent civil officers in 16 years is achievable by
less than one per cent military officers and that too after 33 years of service,
sources said.
rgk said on Tuesday, November 4, 2008, 13:23

After so much of discussion, deliberations and arguments I want to ask a simple elementary question that why these extremely corrupt babus are poking their dirty noses in armed personnel’s demands on government to sort out the anomalies. It seems most of them who are not involved or no way connected in this process are making the maximum noise. Few questions arise are as under:-

What interest do these people have?

Who have planted them?

Is their intention to cause unrest in the Institution which was

untouched by politics so far?

On whose payroll they are?

Basically these thoughts come in one’s mind because corrupt to core babus can even sell their mothers, what is motherland for them. As it is they get their hefty pocket money ( in terms of pay and allowances ) from Government of India in addition to their regular income in lakhs / month ( in bribes ), then why the hell they should be interested in defence forces few thousands rupees ( petty amount by any corrut babu’s standard )demand. There is more to it than any right thinking man visulises.
kartik said on Tuesday, November 4, 2008, 13:28

@rgk
the baboos can do anything because people like you are slave to army act so you can’nt do anything. so just keep quite and quit .
rgk said on Tuesday, November 4, 2008, 14:05

@ Kartik and Khaki

Every army person is proud of the fact that he/she comes under army act so what’s your point in reminding it is not understood. To your earlier comment “RM gave just one ghudki and none of chiefs has spoken even a single sentence till now.” You seems to be RM’s undie that you know exactly what RM has said to whom. And Khaki, why are you exposing your ignorance? For your information no MoD babu is entitiled to take any policy decision on anyone’s Pay and allowances. Rank pay definition will not be changed becuase some babu desires so. Now I have no desire to communicate with such ill informed fools, so good bye.
sands said on Tuesday, November 4, 2008, 15:24

The MOD is trivialising issues of honour of the Armed Forces. Has anyone pondered how dangerous it is for the country. What is the fall back if the forcs run amock….China/Pakis
SATYASAACH said on Tuesday, November 4, 2008, 15:45

Tuesday, November 4, 2008
The make believe world of inferiority : Courtesy 6th CPC
-

Before I start, some basic facts about history. The controversy of equation has now whittled down to the concept of rank pay. So let’s forget rank pay for a while and go back to 3rd CPC days when there was no rank pay. The 3rd CPC NFSG scale of Rs 1650-1800 is now in Pay Band-4 (Rs 37,400-67000) with a Grade Pay of Rs 8700 while the 3rd CPC scale for Lt Col @ Rs 1750-1950 is today in Pay Band-3 (Rs 15,600-39100) with a Grade Pay of Rs 7600.

Is the IAS to blame for this mess ? I don’t think so.

All the chaos we are in seems a direct resultant of incorrect self-created pay equation reflected by the 6th CPC on page 73 of the report. But who bells the cat my friends ?. The 6th CPC stated that the closest comparison of Military officers was that with the Indian Police Service. The most apt evaluation should be the 3rd CPC since at that point of time the ugly Rank Pay controversy was still a story for the future. That said, after wrongly showing Lt Col equal to Junior Administrative Grade (JAG), the following is a recap of what the 6th CPC had to say on relativities in it’s comparative tables about the ranks of Colonel and Brigadier :

Non-Functional Selection Grade (Rs 2000-2250) was shown equal to Colonel (Rs 1950-2175)

DIG (Rs 2250-2500) was shown equal to Brigadier (Rs 2200-2400)

But dear Sirs and Ma’ams, unfortunately the above is a lie.

The scale shown against NFSG (Rs 2000-2250) was actually the scale of a DIG and not NFSG whereas the scale shown against DIG (Rs 2250-2500) was actually the scale of the erstwhile then existing rank of Additional IG (later merged into IG) and not of DIG. And would you like to know what the Non-Functional Selection Grade scale was for IPS, well it was Rs 1650-1800. What about Lt Col you may ask, well friends Lt Col was placed in Rs 1750-1950 and today we have the Ministry of Expenditure giving us a lecture that Lt Col was not equivalent to NFSG but to JAG. What hogwash !. In fact, it was the scale of a Major that was closer to NFSG – a Major was placed in Rs 1550-1800. Moreover the IPS scale of Rs 1650-1800 was known as Selection Grade and not Non-Functional Selection Grade as stated in 6th CPC.

With particular reference to the Lt Col-NFSG controversy, here is the actual 3rd CPC comparison with the IPS:
(Note : The figure in brackets is the 6th CPC Scale)

Lt Col : Rs 1750-1950 (Pay Band-3 with Grade Pay Rs 7600)
Selection Grade of the IPS : Rs 1650-1800 (Pay Band-4 with Grade Pay Rs 8700)
Major : Rs 1550-1800 : (Pay Band-3 with Grade Pay Rs 6600)

Why did then the 6th CPC show an NFSG scale as Rs 2000-2250 while it was actually 1650-1800 and a DIG’s scale as 2250-2500 when it was actually 2000-2250 ?

Historically, whenever there is a merger of scales, lower scales are merged into higher scales, but in case of the military, the closest military scales have been merged into lower civil scales, why ?

In the comparison tables, a Captain has been shown against the Senior Time Scale (STS) in 3rd CPC and then against Junior Time Scale (clubbed with Lieut) in the 4th CPC. Who authorized this degradation ? Is there any order to the effect ? No, there is none. There is nothing in the 4th CPC report to suggest that a Capt is being downgraded from STS to JTS. Again 6th CPC’s fertile imagination at work !

4th CPC clearly states (admitted by 6th CPC too) that rank pay was carved out of basic pay. If that be so, how can they now say that rank pay is not a part of basic ?. When a continuous running pay band of Rs 2300-5100 was created for all ranks from 2/Lieut till Brig by the 4th CPC, rank pay was added into basic pay as a differentiating factor. If we say that rank pay is not a part of basic, it would amount to saying that all ranks from 2/Lieut till Brig have the same status since they were in the same scale of Rs 2300-5100.

Why this ‘kanjoosi’ with the Armed Forces only ? To take an example, in defence services with over 55000 officer cadre strength, there are just a little over 20 officers in the Apex Scale of Rs 80,000 fixed (Army Commander’s scale) and still there is opposition to granting the HAG+ scale to other Lt Generals. In comparison, the IAS with a cadre strength of about 4700 officers has about 215 officers in the Apex scale, the Indian Forest Service with a strength of about 2600 officers has about 30 officers in the Apex scale while the IPS with about 3900 officers also has 30 officers in the same scale.

The govt is well meaning, the political leadership is also not to be blamed but the senior bureaucracy, especially in the Ministry of Finance, should deal with the issue with an open mind and not depend on clerical notes put up by the lower echelons of governance. A desk officer or section officer has no right to comment on equivalence or relativities of the military with the civil services and senior civil officers also should put their grey matter into gear - it is not difficult, just forget the 6th CPC tables on Page 73 and start with a clean slate, unlocked attitude and new tables.

-
Posted by Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh at 3:03 PM 0 comments
SOURCE:http://indianmilitarybenefits.blogspot.com/2008/11/make-believe-world-of-inferiority.html
BP SINGH said on Tuesday, November 4, 2008, 15:49

It appears every one wants to have best of both world.Defence services were given edge in starting salary as a compensation to the hardship,but not to show that there status is more.However the rank pay given to service officers was again same but taken as status by Armed forces and started demanding status by addition to payscales.Well nobody will agree to this,neither 6cpc nor any body else ,please understand.
sands said on Tuesday, November 4, 2008, 16:48

Trivialising the Defence on issues of pay by Mod are going to have far reaching consequences. Donot push anyone to the wall. How is the fall back if the Defence Forces run amock.
binu said on Tuesday, November 4, 2008, 18:36

CRPF, ITBP & SSB

PRECEIVED DISPARITY IN PAY BETWEEN LT COL & EQUIVALENT OFFICERS OF ARMED FORCES & 2IC OF CPFs

….

Dear Sir,

Your kind attention is invited to the widely circulated media reports on the so called disparity in pay between Lt Col and equivalent ranking officers of Armed Forces & Second-in-Command of CPMFs as perceived by Defence Forces. As reported in the media the Armed forces have held the implementation of the 6th CPC in abeyance till Lt Col. Rank officers Army and its equivalent ranks in IAF and Indian Navy are upgraded in the Pay Band - 4. To keep the issue alive and agitate in a forceful manner, the Defence Services through media and its Retired Personnel have resorted to a misinformation and misleading campaign wherein, the CPFs are being projected with a negative bias and thus downgraded. There is a lot of discontentment and heartburning amongst the officers of Cental Para Military Forces.

2. This factually incorrect propaganda as projected by The Defence Service is perceived by the CPMFs as unjust, harmful and detrimental to the morale of our officers.

3. In the following paragraphs, a case has been made out to emphasise that the views of Defence Services are incorrect and perhaps misconstrued:-

I) The nature of duties being performed by Lt Colonel in Defence Forces & Second-in-Command in CPFs are as under:-

a) The rank equivalence of Commandant of CPMF in Defence Force is Colonel and pay commission have placed both rank in pay band-4. Defence Forces are unfairly equating the rank of Lt.Col (who is generally second in command and in many cases just a company commander) with the Commandant of CPMF. A Commandant at present is commanding a Unit comprising of 7 Service Coys with strength of 1172 troops as against 868 troops commanded by a Colonel of an Infantry Bn.

b) Only one post of Second in Command is authorized in CPFs, which is command appointment. He commands the Battalion in the absence of the Commandant. Whereas, in an Infantry Bn there can be 2 to 5 Lt Col rank officers. These Lt Cols are performing the duties of Coy Comdrs which is being performed by Asstt Commandant in CPMFs. Thus the functional difference between Second in Command and Lt Col is more than obvious.

c) In addition to above, the adhoc Bn of CPMF while deployed for Election Duty, Internal Security Duties etc., is commanded by the Second-in-Command which is very frequent.

d) Post implementation of the AVS Committee report Part – I & II, Defence Forces Officers are promoted to the rank of Lt Col with in 13 years (being time scale promotion not linked to vacancies) and Colonel after 16 years of service. On the other hand, in CPMFs an officer reaches the rank of Second in Command after 16 to 17 years of service (linked with actual vacancies and by selection) and Commandant after 20 -21 years of service.

e) It is worth mentioning that CPMFs remain deployed in most difficult and work under hostile conditions on the border without any peace tenure. During hostilities, CPMF work in tandem with Army shoulder to shoulder, fight as the first line of defense and face the first brunt of the enemy onslaught.

II) The Comparison of pay as per 6th CPC between Lt Col & Second in Command and Colonel and Commandant is as under:-

Lt Col
(Defence Forces) Second-in-Command
(CPFs) Colonel
(Defence Forces) Commandant
(CPFs)
Pay Band,
Band Pay
+
Grade Pay PB-3
15600-39100
+
7600 Grade Pay +
6000 Military Service Pay (MSP) PB-3
15600-39100
+
7600 Grade Pay PB-4
37400-67000
+
8700 Grade Pay +6000 MSP PB-4
37400-67000
+
8700 Grade Pay
Total Pay 33872
(15600+7600+ 6000 MSP+16% DA) 26912
(15600+7600+16%) 60436
(37400+8700+6000 +16% DA) 53476
(37400+8700 +16% DA)

Difference in pay

Lt Colonel Second-in-Command Difference
33872 26912 6960
I

Colonel Comdt Difference
60436 53476 6960
II

4. As may be seen from the above table that the edge to the Defence Forces has already been maintained by way of MSP. Besides, the pay difference mentioned above many other allowances are applicable to Army which, CPMFs are not entitled to despite performing the same nature of duties and being deployed is the same area.

5. In case the Lt Col of Defence Forces are placed in the pay band PB -4 the difference of pay between Lt.Col and Second-in-Command will be as under:

Lt Col Second-in-Command Difference per month
Rs.37400-67000 +
7600 (Grade Pay) + 6000 (MSP)

Total = 59160 Rs.15600-39100 +
7600( Grade Pay)

Total = 26912
32248

Accordingly, Defence officers will reach pay band-4 in 13 years, whereas Second-in-Command of CPMFs will reach pay band-4 in 23 years with present career progression. This 10 years (120 months) time difference will affect a cumulative loss of approximately Rs. 38.70 lacs, which is greatly unjust and a big demoralizing factor.

6. It is therefore requested that in case the demand of Defence Forces to place the Lt Col in pay band-4 is accepted, the equivalent rank of CPMFs i.e. Second-in-Commandant should also be placed in same band.
Crazy said on Tuesday, November 4, 2008, 19:09

@rg kadam
You are threatening of HUJI , L&T etc. Army or no Army, it do not make any difference.
They have been operating and they send mail in advance, kuchh kar sako to kar lo. So better being armyman you should not try to threaten the countrymen
@manoj They basically know nothing, no facts just barking. You shout parity from roof tops, why don’t have parity within services
Pilot gets Rs 7000 and Engineers gets how much ???? Apne ghar seesheey ke ho to doosron ko pathar nahin marte
INDARMY said on Tuesday, November 4, 2008, 19:25

MR MANOJ EITHER YOU DONT UNDERSTAND ENGLISH OR ARE ILLITERATE ENOUGH NOT TO INTERPRET CORRECTLY. I DID NOT DISPUTE YOU EARLIER ALSO NOR AM I DISPUTING YOU NOW. PROBLEM LIES ON GROUND WHERE THE CREDIT SLIP GIVES YOU A CONCOCTED VERSION OF SAI. IF YOU ARE NOT FROM THE FORCES PLEASE GO AN SEE THE PAYSLIP OF THE FORCES GUY AND YOUR DOUBTS WILL BE CLEARED AS TO WHY FORCES GUYS ARE GETTING ANNOYED.
multanigsm said on Tuesday, November 4, 2008, 20:22

these politicians are interested in their vote bank only .they are treating defence forces like shit.Troops have lost interest in the pride of their profession which use to be earlier.Do our govt expect that for looking up safety of every indian is the responsibility of defence forces and to look up the welfare of troops these helpless people have to beg the govt like beggars for their pay.Day is not far away army rule might take place if these bureaucrats continues back stabbing.
DEEPAK said on Tuesday, November 4, 2008, 21:58

MR ADMINISTRATOR

I DUN THINK SO THERE WAS ANY NEED TO DELET MY COMMENT AS IT CONTAINED ONLY FACT AND NUTHIN WRONG…….
I WILL STILL WRITE AND WILL KEEP WRITING IT

MR MANOj —-manoj said on Monday, November 3, 2008, 22:32

dear menon,

In SAI
rank pay has been added to basic pay and then multiplied by 1.86 to arrive at new pay.. so where is the discrepency.. abuse without a cause may not be justified

———————-

Yes U R Right That RP And BP Has Been Added And Multiplied By 1.86 Which Gives New Pay
BUT WHEN IT COMES TO GRADE PAY THE EQUIVALENT GARDE PAY HAS NOT BEEN GIVEN.. E.G FOR LT COL (13500+1600)= 15100 x 1.86 = 28086. PAY HAS BEEN FIXED CORRECTLY BUT THE EQUIVALENT GRADE PAY OF 15100 IS 8700 PB 4…. WHY IT HAS NOT BEEN GIVEN?? ISN’T THE MATHEMATICS CLEAR…

DEEPAK
dev said on Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 7:28

@ BINU………………So the police walahs want parity with supreme sacrifice rs………You gone nuts please.You know what the police is famous for…?..you know it and this whole nation knows it…..forgot the Mutiny of 1963 by these police walahs and how our proud defence forces showed them the place.Stop demanding eggs when you deserve only a slice.
ranawat said on Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 8:40

what surprises me is that except for Punjab, no other state govt has even spoken about the pay anomalies of the Armed Forces and the consequent demoralisation it has led to in one of the largest fighting forces of the world….so much for the politicians of this country and their concern for the defence forces……….but why should they bother……most of them have z+ security, immense wealth looted from the state exchequer ….obviously with the help of compliant bureaucrats…..God save this country…….
SHOCKER said on Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 8:43

A MATTER OF CONFIDENCE By
AIR MARSHAL
Sharad Y Savur (Retd)
Former AOC-in-C
SOUTHERN AIR COMMAND

Perhaps Ms Sushama Nath, the Expenditure Secretary (IAS MP cadre) could not tell the most powerful Committee of Secretaries (CoS) that as the erstwhile Secretary to the 6th Central Pay Commission, they were exceeding their brief. Perhaps our Armed Forces Chiefs must be wondering what they have let loose on themselves to invite a few biting editorials perhaps believing in what Groucho Marx (or was it some one else) wrote – that “military intelligence is a contradiction in terms”?

In the heat of what the IAS sister and brethren believed to be extra-constitutional powers and the Chief Editor propounded on the indiscipline of the three Chiefs, most of us have lost sight of the basic truth. That undeniable truth was that the CoS was tasked to review the recommendations of the 6th CPC not to usurp and overturn those recommendations of the 6th CPC that were unpalatable to the IAS.

It does not help any bystander, biased or otherwise, to understand why the Expenditure Secretary in the Ministry of Finance, who was the erstwhile Secretary of the 6th Pay Commission, did not find the moral courage to tell her fellow-Secretaries that they were exceeding their brief. The Government had neither promulgated nor gazetted the CoS to overturn the recommendations of the 6th CPC, constituted and its constitution was gazetted by the Government.

Now why did the Chiefs behave the way they did? Let us go back a decade, to the 5th CPC. There was a near mutiny in the IAF because the then CAS propounded and got the Govt to approve higher flying pay for fighter pilots, simultaneously downgrading flying pay of the transport and helicopter pilots and navigators. Transport and helicopter pilots refused their flying pay, they off-loaded fighter pilots from their aircraft/helicopters.

The problem was further compounded because the technical officers got only a marginal increase and decided to sue the IAF. They contributed to hire a lawyer.

It took some inhuman treatment of many technical officers in a place called Hasimara to subdue the unrest. Many technical officers were removed from the IAF. Yet more were mentally and physically tortured; their families suffered worse fates, not knowing where their husbands were.
This Chief was in the team that went around the IAF in 1998 that was trying to put out the fires that were burning, simmering and embers flying from places as far apart as Chabua, Agra and Jamnagar.

The present Chairman of the Chiefs of Staffs Committee and the COAS were spectators of that 1998 fire and must have realised the implications of the recommendations of the 6th CPC. Their apprehensions must have turned to reality when the CoS decided, in whatever wisdom any dispassionate bystander would not understand, to bestow their meanness on the Armed Forces. The IAS dominated CoS, in their unhindered vision for establishing supremacy beyond pale, having sudued the IPS and placed the IFS in foreign climes, no pun intended, perhaps forgot, what Hegel said, “We learn from History that we never learn from History.”

The Chiefs must have discussed as to what would happen if every soldier, sailor and airman sat down and calculated, using their intelligence much to the horror of Groucho Marx, that the Armed Forces were being given not only a short shrift in status but also a debilitated pay slip and that the lateral transfer remaind on paper, not even considered by the CoS, let alone the Govt.

So they approached the Raksha Mantri, to convince him that the Armed Forces were being denigrated in pay and allowances and status, enough damage having already been done elsewhere, like the Warrant of Precedence, that had no place for a Field Marshal, 35 years after he was appointed.

They must have informed the RM that the IAS dominated CoS introduced differentials in pay and status of the armed forces vis-à-vis- the para-military and Coast Guard. Perhaps the did not expect any substantial protests which had the signs of deteriorating to a crisis, perhaps because the most intelligent public servants forgot the not so distant past 1998.

That is when the Chiefs must have decided to inform the Raksha Mantri that there was something seriously wrong in the CoS mandated offerings. They must have decided that they must take some drastic measures to prevent a fire that would spread to the three services.

The Chiefs had Hobson’s choice – implement the CoS recommendations (mark that it is not the 6th CPC recommendations) and face revolts in their respective forces or decline to implement the CoS recommendations accepted by the Govt but neither notified nor Gazetted by the Min of Def.

That is where the situation took a different dimension – the inability of a Chief Editor to correctly interpret two aspects.

The first misinterpretation was that the Chiefs were disobeying the Govt. How could they if MoD had not notified the CoS dictat? What Govt orders were the Chiefs disobeying? A look at the National Portal will prove that there are notifications for the IAS, followed by those for the IPS etc and there are those for civil pensioners. But none for the Armed Forces for the Resolution also stated that orders for Defence Forces would be issued by the Min of Def.

The second misinterpretation was that the Chairman COSC and CNS was stoking/encouraging “disobedience” by asking the rank and file of the Navy to accept with patience that it would take some time for the CoS bestowed ‘largesse’ to be corrected. He asked them not to pay heed to speculations and rumours. Was such a pre-emptive action (to prevent a 1998 like situation) disobedience?

Now the IAS and the Armed Forces are firing salvos at each other. Leaks to the TV of a vituperative note traveling the corridors of the Armed Forces HQ was aired. The person who leaked that forgot something called “Minor Staff Duties” which makes it mandatory that Armed Forces write their notes in a certain manner.

Flawed logic followed. Some ‘Civilian Officer’ wrote on another blog that because a person enters the IAS cadre at a later age (say 24 years) and having 11 years of service must be equated with an Armed Forces person who enters the Service at 20 years of age and has 15 years because both are now 35 years of age is laughable if not downright foolish.

The author further argued that candidates for IAS have graduated, have degrees in engineering and medicine and therefore should get seniority invite a riposte – why did they waste the opportunity to serve humanity in remote villages building water harvesting ponds or treating the rural folk? Because, to face the truth, an engineer or a doctor is at the mercy of a bureaucrat in any guise, with the IAS at the top of that heap. So why not have the cake and eat it too?

So where does all this take us? Perhaps it is not too late for the Group/Committee of Ministers to consider the anomalies with an open mind. Have the courage to tell the Armed Forces they are right and punish the CoS or tell the Armed Forces they are wrong and why and punish the Chiefs.

The need today is for the Govt to answer a few fundamental questions –

Will it let the 6th CPC that it appointed be superseded by the CoS thereby hold the 6th CPC to ridicule? Why does the Finance Ministry say that it cannot give 450 crores for the Armed Forces when it gave Rs 71,000 crores to the farmers, Rs 450 crores to rescue the UCO Bank, Rs 30,000 crores to rescue mutual Funds? Now the King of Good Times and Jet Airways want 47,000 crores of the tax payers money to bail them out of the self-created mess. Can the Govt provide as much confidence to soldiers, sailors and airmen that they are shedding blood, sweat and tears by not letting them be ridiculed by a bureacracy that has usurped the powers that the Govt should and must exercise?

That the Govt has as much if not more confidence in the Armed Forces as the Armed Forces have in the Govt when they carry out orders that should have been carried out by the bureaucracy (providing succour in natural calamities), the police (restoring law and order) and the CPMF (attempting to quell insurgencies and terrorism)?

It is not a matter of status or monetary benefits. It is a matter of whether the Govt has confidence in the Armed Forces or whether the Govt has lost confidence in the Armed Forces and therefore agreed with the CoS to lower the status of the Armed Forces and consequently their rightful status and monetary benefits.

(Air Marshal Savur retired in 2006 as AOC-in-C, Southern Air Command. A decorated transport pilot, Air Marshal Savur has flown several VIPs, including former PMs Indira Gandhi and Rajiv Gandhi. He now lives and works near Bangalore.)
Posted by Shiv Aroor at 9:08 PM
Categories: Columns, Controversy, Editorials, Government, LF Exclusive, Military Pay, MoD, Writers :http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/10/livefist-column.html
PBFour said on Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 9:24

A RAY OF HOPE FINALLY:

Tuesday, November 04, 2008
6thPC: An update

Chairman, Chiefs of Staff Committee Admiral Sureesh Mehta met Defence Minister AK Antony on Monday to discuss the various new anomalies that have allegedly cropped up in the special pay instructions issued by the MoD in mid-October to the three services. He has personally conveyed to Antony that the instructions contain anomalies and deviations that did not exist before, and are over and above the four core demands that the Chiefs of Staff Committee has placed before the Group of Ministers. The two main points are of course the redefinitions of Rank Pay and Military Service Pay. Antony has apparently said he’ll “look into these”. Don’t know how that’s going to work out. Will the seven anomalies be added to the terms of reference of the GoM? Unlikely. So now what?
Posted by Shiv Aroor at 8:39 PM 6 comments
Categories: Controversy, Government, Military Pay, MoD, Navy, Personalities SOURCE:http://www.livefist.blogspot.com/
satyasaach said on Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 12:39

NOT an act of DEFIANCE but an act of DESPAIR

LEADER ARTICLE: Give Them Their Due
5 Nov 2008, 0000 hrs IST, Nalin Mehta

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/LEADER_ARTICLE_Give_Them_Their_Due/rssarticleshow/3674065.cms

The hero of the Bangladesh war, Lt Gen J F R Jacob, once commented, only partly in jest, that today’s generals do not even enjoy half the authority that he had once enjoyed as a major. The general should know, having served as an army commander and much later as a governor of Punjab and Goa. At one level, his comment was a compliment to the world’s largest democracy, one of the few post-colonial countries not to have suffered from the ignominy of a military coup. At another level it pointed to the deep well of discontent brewing within the defence forces over perceived slights by what the forces see as an uncaring and overbearing civilian bureaucracy. That wellspring of discontent is now simmering and the heavens seem to have fallen because of the service chiefs’ initial reluctance to accept the recommendations of the 6th Pay Commission.

We are being told that never before has a cabinet decision been so defied by sitting chiefs, that this is the incipient beginning of a “revolt” and that the civilian bureaucracy will ultimately hit back and grind the military chiefs further into the dust. Much of the ongoing debate hinges around one single factor: the supposed breakdown of civil-military relations. There is an argument that the manner in which the service chiefs
Orchestrated their protest was not befitting their status; that they could have registered their protests more unobtrusively and avoided a public stand-off.

The major issue here is about the form, not the substance of the service chiefs’ objections. There is virtually no public voice against the demands raised by the defence forces, all of which are essentially rooted in a basic desire for greater status and yes, greater money.

This is why defence minister A K Antony has supported the chiefs: not because he is weak, but because he senses that at the core of these demands is the bursting out of decades of frustration at being treated as dispensable by the babus.

The key issue here is whether the chiefs have upset the balance of civil-military relations. Let us be clear. At a time when India is taking its due seat at the global high table, it remains one of the few leading powers in the world where civilian authority has come to mean a continuing divorce of the defence services from higher policy-making. Far from being a challenge to civilian authority, the chiefs’ representation to the defence minister is, in fact, a reiteration of the principle of civilian control. Disagreement does not automatically translate into an open revolt.

Do we expect our chiefs to quietly sign on every dotted line, irrespective of the wisdom of doing so? By that logic, Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw who wisely opposed Indira Gandhi’s plans for an immediate invasion of East Pakistan in early 1971 to give his army enough time to prepare was equally wrong. But do we not hail the late field marshal for staying firm in his resolve?

The fact is that the defence forces remain the only true Indian institution that has been relatively immune from
Politicisation and institutionalised corruption of the kind that has come to be associated with the other
Pillars of the state. This is why at times of dire crisis, from the televised rescue of Prince to the worst communal riots in Gujarat, it is always to the men in olive green that we turn. Given this scenario, it is unfortunate that successive pay commissions have regularly downgraded the men and women in uniform. The fight is about status, not about money.

It is also about operational efficiency. It is officers up to the rank of colonel who provide the army with its fighting teeth and it is here that the Pay Commission has hit hardest.

At times of crises, how do we expect lieutenant colonels to lead smooth joint operations with once subordinate civilian authorities who have suddenly been elevated in the order of precedence? This is a disaster in the making and the foreboding in the rank and file of the forces must not be underestimated. This is particularly important because of the immense dissatisfaction caused by the previous two pay commissions as well, the most public manifestation being the ugly protests by sections of the air force last time around.

The wiser route for the government after that would have been to take corrective action or to put a services representative on the pay panel.

Neither was done and the chiefs are now only responding to the aspirations of the rank and file. They are as much responsible to them as they are to the supreme commander and their articulation of the pay commission grievances should be seen in this light.

In 1986, Lt Gen M L Chibber had written a perceptive account of problems with the civil-military equation in
India. Twenty years later, it is even clearer that India is far too large and complex a country for any kind of coordinated or sustained military challenge to the civilian authority. This is why the service chiefs’ response to the pay commission should be read not as an act of defiance, but one of despair. The changes demanded in the pay commission are not about strengthening civilian control - that is not even in question - but about bureaucratic churlishness and about giving the armed forces their due.
harsh said on Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 14:55

It was nice to read the views of AOC-IN-C (RTD) S Y SAYUR. However, there was a big error on the part of Chiefs as head of services. They should have analysed the issue and checked on the facts. The pay of an ICS was always higher than an Army officer. There were no incentives/ perks in those days, check the rules first made in 1920/1934. The Lt Col were getting scale in 23 years and selection scale in 25 years. The same pay to an IES officer was available at 14 years. The army officers when posted to civil posts got civil scales. Today they get military pay and allowances for civil jobs. The chiefs are responsible for all this done in last 3-4 decades. The Lt Col today is working at Capt appointments in most cases. That was the method adopted to get benefit few years back and now the hu and cry of status. The Army needs a particular structure than waht was the need to deploy Lt Col at Capt level. We all, be civil or Army personnel are ment to serve the people of country. I wonder i always thought we had best army. They way the defence officers have been writing abuses to all, iwonder they are born to all armymen or some of them are born to corrupt civilians and whether some of them have corrupt civilian sons and daughters. Let us be clear that all joiuns and leave service by choice and there is no statistics to show that any army officers sons/daughters are joining army leaving a IAS job or 15 lakh package of MNC and any civilian’s son never joins army. We better be first indian for common men. This entire issue is the result of asking for undue. Army still continues with the concept of promoting the 10th pass Jawan to Col. Large no of personnel do no military duty till they retire. Some of the officers talked of 24*7 duty. I know many Army officers who fail to sustain their jobs because they cannot bear thepressure of civil life. The Army should have looked inside to maintain a good organisation and a fairone. As said by someone, the unfairess within forces is so much that if discused in open it will be very embarrsing for chiefs, the worst part they know it verywell. I had suggested earlier that let governement withdraw all fecilities and grant 50% more pay to army on year to year basis so that there is transparency and people know it. Thanks
Kan said on Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 16:24

Air Mshl SY Savur and Lt Gen Jacob are such respected personalities that it is just prudent that learned individuals of all forces read their comments. as far as CPMF guys comparing Lt Col with their force structure well I hold CPMFs in great esteem but their cannot be any comparisond firstly because a person who is in charge of an aircraft costing hundreds of crores and a missile battery costing another hundred crore and in charge of ship costing thousands of crores, their status can not be defined by kidtalk of number and manpower. Actually by that logic an IPS incharge of thousand Homeguard should be much higher in status. No one repeat no one but the govt of india would decide after understanding that who is responsible for the mischief and does th armed forces of the nation desrve this. THe controversy is so unfortunate and especially comments of few IAS officers who I thought are matured. Just for few comments on the selection grade rank of Lt Col/Wg Cdr/Cdr:- Not all officers become Lt Cols if they have not secured the required AR(appraisal Report) gradings, Passed promotional exams(Two), have appropriate Medical category. Besides this Most officer cadre has to undergo proifessional Standardisation every year repeat every year to maintain their professional currency. Also being subjected to PROFESSIONAL INSPECTIONs by dedicated orgaisation. If an individual is truly Indian he would at the least stop downgrading its own armed forces . Please Remeber this is INDIAN ARMED FORCES and not forces belonging to any other nation.
binu said on Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 17:38

IT’S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY:-

The revision of pay for the Government servants was supposed to bring cheers on their faces. But unwittingly the report of the Sixth Central Pay Commission has created history of a different kind. It seems to have antagonised the Indian Defence Forces so much that the Army has come to a standoff with the Government over the issue of pay. This is a dangerous precedence set by these forces and has exposed nothing the defence forces as undisciplined and untrustworthy. What they have done is but disobedience of orders of the superior authority, in this case the Central Government.

In the Army Act, disobedience is a serious offence which calls for strict punitive measures. One can easily imagine the damage such attitude can cause, especially when it comes from the top brass of our defence forces. I am forced to draw comparisons with the Pakistan Army and our Army fares better only to the extent that it hasn’t overthrown the Government, yet.

Indian Defence forces are smartly using the ubiquitous media to articulate their perceived dissatisfaction with the pay package offered and the media is playing to their tune. In fact the media cannot be blamed because it will be politically incorrect to take a stand against the Defence forces given the emotional quotient associated with the issue. But why do the media not challenge the retired service officers who are acting as the mouthpiece of the forces, with the stark reality of rampant corruption in the Army? Why, the Tehelka expose′ is not raked up. Why various other high profile cases of corruption and fake killings are not talked about? It is surprising that with such a tainted past the forces are showing the audacity to openly defy the Government.

The mouthpieces have been harping on the issue of fighting militancy in Kashmir and the North-East. True, perhaps they cannot talk of a war since there has not been any after 1971. And the possibility of one taking place also is negligible. And here is the Army demanding fat pay packages where as generations of their officers and soldiers will retire without seeing a war. On the other hand there are other Armed Forces like the BSF which has been fighting insurgency in Kashmir and North-East since the days it started. The sacrifices made by the BSF are no less than the Army. Its achievements are no lesser either. Stagnation in BSF is worse than in the Army, but the BSF has never complained about performing duties it is not originally raised for like the Army always bemoans about performing other roles at every available opportunity. Not only that, the BSF is always willing to take additional responsibilities like security during elections etc. The fact that BSF will actively participate in a hot war is never highlighted by any Army officer in public. This era is of multitasking. All organisations in the interest of the Nation must perform duties in times of emergencies which they might not be mandated for when they were raised.

At the Border too the BSF is on duty round the clock. When the Army sits cosy at a peace station a BSF jawan keeps vigil at the Border for more than 18 hours in a day 375 days in a year. Barring Siachin, BSF is deployed at equally inhospitable terrains. The misconception that the Army guards our Borders must be cleared. The media must make efforts to clear their obfuscated vision and enlighten the people. Yet there is a glaring and huge disparity in the pay of a BSF jawan and an Army Jawan even when they are deployed shoulder to shoulder. And then there are no film stars visiting BSF posts either.
2

No media coverage at all. Besides, the problem of family separation in BSF is perhaps biggest amongst all uniformed services. The wards of BSF personnel seldom do well in studies and in life. Compare this to the Miss India etc who are so often Army officers’ daughters. The Army officers own a house in almost all expensive localities in Delhi and other metros. Number of BSF or other paramilitary service officers with this kind of privilege is negligible. The Army runs good schools at all place where they get deployed, a facility, BSF can only dream of. They are showered with so many concessions, discounts, post retirement benefits etc but similar privileges are non existent in the life of BSF person. Compare the residential societies raised by the Army with those raised by the paramilitary services and one can easily judge that they have been only making merry. Even the gallantry medals earned by the paramilitary forces are accorded a lower status than those earned by the Army. This rampant discrimination has been going on for years but the BSF has never had any instance of collective disobedience or desertions like the one seen in the Army in the past. Yet they are pleading for more like spoilt children.

In Kashmir and North-East the role of the Army has always been under a shadow of human rights abuse. The have been killing innocent people and branding them as terrorists by planting weapons on them. How can the media forget such incidents so easily? Such incidents are much more in number and only a few high profile ones were reported in the National media. BSF on the contrary has a much better reputation in anti-insurgency operations.

There is a lot of hue and cry about the status of a Lt Col too. People must understand what Lt Cols in the Army do. They either officiate as Commanding Officers in the absence of the Colonel or perform duties of staff officers in the headquarters and surprisingly also command companies, a sub-unit of a battalion, a task which has to be performed by a Major/Captain. In BSF the 2IC (Lt Col) does similar duties but the rank has not been degraded like in the Army. The 2 IC does not perform the duties of a company commander. Wonder how they can equate a company commander with a director or a 2IC of BSF. If a Lt Col is upgraded to pay band 4, will the BSF 2IC also be extended the same courtesy he will have to resort to indiscipline to get that status.

Indian defence forces are a reflection of our secular status. There are numerous personnel from minority communities serving in these forces. They have been laying their lives for this country and when religious fanatics indulged in mob fury killing thousands of minority community people including women and children, no Chief serving or retired raised his voice to pressurise the Government to act tough lest the harmonious relations amongst all religions in the forces would be affected adversely. Those were the times when they should have been a little assertive. But when they raised their voice, they did it for a few pennies more. So the motivation factor is not patriotism but money and only money. The big question then is that whether the Nation is safe in the hands of a greedy Army ready to hold to ransom its own Government or there should be disciplinary proceedings initiated against the Generals to restore sanity and supremacy of the Government?
Force1 said on Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 18:57

Dear Mr Binu,
You have very adequately highlighted the problems of the BSF.Believe me the armed forces are totally in agreement with your requirements. However, there are certain factors that need to be considered- this pay comission has brought everyone where they wanted to ! Small intradepartmental fights and jealousies have now snowballed into major Wars with everyone pointing fingers at each other and trying to prove that he is the only patriot and clean person.the individual feels that he is one who suffers the hardships while the others are freaking out! Is it so?We have lost pride in ourselves and our professions! Most of us are doing jobs that highly professional and require intense training. Most of us cannot switch careers and perform the other persons Job.We are compartmentalised. therefore all pay and and allowances should be based on the years of service put in with special allowances for good performances and harsh conditions.There is no need to compare between different services - if the forces have the Pakis to suffer, the civil services also have to suffer the corrupt politicians and do not have the advantage of falling back on to disciplined cadres. So ideally we shuld have more easy lateral entries and easier release from service if we dont like the terms and dont want to serve anymore.
crazy said on Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 19:08

Some Joker @ satboy was trying to say that MNS (military nursing service officers’) trying to seek parity with the doctors. All the AMC Yamrajs in Army also think on same lines. Duno from where they get such type of ill rotten ideas that command & control will be hampered and patient care in long run. They know only three lines of english command & control, morale of men, scurity and Izzat. There are covers for for corruption and every greed. Basically you know balls. If you do not know the facts, do not present shit. MSP for MNS is Rs 4200, whereas for AMC and other officers it is Rs 6000. AMC Officer’ basic is 10% above the other officers as well MNS officer, this is to cater far their entry at later age and compensation for 5 1/2
yrs MBBS training. Apart from this they get specialised pay and Non Practice Allowance @ 25% for odd hours duty & non practicing. AMC gets faster promotions as per AVS committee and now any tom, dick & harry has become Lt. Cols after that. MNS duties are much harder round the clock with night duty. There is no NPA or night duty allowance for them. Any fool will know that there is no parity but a wide disparity between MNS & AMC officers. Not many know that these very MNS officers are being fixed deliberately to show that there is command and control problem after 6th Pay Commission. AMC Offrs do basic duty from 9AM to 2PM and occassionally emergencies. Whereas MNS do night duty and round the clock duty i.e. more than 50 hrs a week. Why MNS are not paid Night Duty Allowance and NPA. Becuase no body is there to project their case to Govt/6PC. They did not ask for anything, what ever 6PC has given was accepted. In a last ditch effort of their “Operation Downgrade” sister & allied services, Army Chief wrote a false letter fabricating the case for reduction of MNS officers status & Pay & Allowances. If Army chief can write such a false letter [C/7021/VI-PCC(Army) dated 20 Jun 2008] and twist the facts, one can only say the either he do not know the meaning of it, if so he don’t deserve to be chief and if it is with mailce, why he is not taken to task for writing a false letter. Not many know that every one has got Oct pay as per new pay scales exept MNS officers, coutesy: these very geedy champions of operation downgrade. They have been indulging in operation downgrade. Lt. Col, Lt Col ….. nothing else, why BSF, why Coast Gurad getting more. There is no end to greed. MSP for offr Rs 6000 and for PBOR
Rs 2000, What a joke. Can the special pay be graded? If at all it has to, it can be on length of service. Offr ko Siechen mein Jyada thand lagta hai, to kya jawan ko kum lagta hai. There was no problem in 6PC baring one Lt. Col. issue. One should remember that a Judge headed it and Prof. Dholkia of IIM-A was onboard. It was fairly good report except Lt. Col. issue. This one particular issue was not required to question the whole implementation and go to the extent of defying Govt. It could have been solved later as it is being done now. You need to learn the basic lession that “Respect is commanded and not demanded”
abc said on Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 19:16

Dear binu

Whoever you are, I totaly agree with you. The indiciplined and untrustworthy armed forces must be disbanded immediately before they become a serious danger for this great nation and its saint like population. Why should peace loving country like our’s have a defence forces in the first place ( invasion by China, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc are abberations, our honest to core para military and police forces can handle them ). It is unneccessary and wasteful expenditure of honest, well natured, non-corrupt and god fearing tax payers. Every individual worth his/her salt right from Mr Jawaharlal Nehru, Mr Krishna Menon and such like minded people were propogating to crush and throw these scoundral of faujis in the sea. Unfortunately no one listened them, otherwise we would have been saved from witnessing such a hooligan and disobidient armed forces. Excellent, dear binu; KEEP IT UP.
abc said on Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 19:44

@ Crazy

You are absolutely right. MNS cadre in armed forces is exploited to the extreme. I totaly agree and sympathise with you. The scoundral of armed forces doctors who are proffessionally incompetant donot respect MNS cadre, very bad, very bad. In fact, I heard that most of diagnosis, complicated operations etc are performed by the MNS but doctors take the credit for it, how shameful. I have a bright idea for your cadre, just resign from the armed forces and join any government hospital. I promise, there you will not only get your due but will be treated as QUEENS. Make a wise decision and quit as early as possibe. Otherwise also you are not safe in armed forces among these indisiplined, disobedient, corrupt and untrustworthy doctors. All THE BEST FOR YOUR NEW INNINGS IN GOVERNMENT HOSPITALS.
Suri said on Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 19:50

Dear Binu,
I accept your loyalties towards your service but next best thing when one is not sure is to keep quiet. Incidentally, my father is a retired CRPF officer and brother a serving Military officer (now PB-3, may join the gang of PB-4, if all goes well). Large number of good frieds of mine are in CRPF/BSF; so I can’t afford to cross their way. I said so in order to avoid the label of being anti-CRPF and such like other labels. I have highest regards for CPOs as well as our Defence Forces (for obvious reasons). Notwithstanding personal reasons, I feel a daughter (CPOs) can never be equated with the Mother (Defence Forces). Clear cut tasks of both, Military and CPOs, are laid out and apparently there is no debate on that. As persons from uniformed service, you should understand one thing that pitting CPOs against Defence Forces was a ploy by our BABOOZs community in order to dilute the stand taken by Defence Forces. In fact it is time that we all must realise the bigger game plan of IAS lobby. They are following the policy of “Divide and Rule” which they got in legacy from Britishers. You would recall that it is due to this policy CPOs don’t even have a cadre to call their OWN and hence are subjugated to IPS lobby (as respective DGs) despite having many competent CPO officers having faded to obliviun. Isn’t it the right time to demand a cadre for yourself so that you could have a chief to call as your own. I feel rather than falling prey to the pettty politics of Bureaucrates and ending up spoiling relations with Defence Forces, CPOs must concentrate on improving the internal management. Remember comparing Daughter/Daughter-in-law with Mother/Mother-in-law will end up lose-lose situation for CPOs. Analyse with a quiet mind.
Thanx
dev said on Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 20:12

@ Binu……………A disgusted,disgruntled and unpatriotic scorn you are….may be a babu for sure.People like you do not deserve to be called an Indian………….Even God will hesitate to put you in hell……..******* is the word for you.
crazy said on Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 20:12

@abc Im not into this cadre by any means but I thought as there is no one to speak for them, to make all countrymen and women aware regarding these facts. There is no one to take up their grievances as they are placed under very AMC cadre against whom there grievances are. After all, everyone is paid from tax payers pocket. If greedy Offrs can be paid suitably, why not MNS and PBORs. . So many representations from from PBOR for different allowances for them vi a vis Offrs, where component of risk / threat, ration, Field area, Adverse Climate are same. MSP for all the ranks including Offrs should be graded on the length of service nad not on rank. Otherwise pay all Rs 6000, down from new recruit to chief.
satyasaach said on Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 20:27

Binu, the least u can do is to remain magnimous about our brilliant Armed Forces. For any calamity of any proportion in any part of India, ultimately Defence is called in, such is the Nation’s faith in our Armed Forces.Below posting one letter from a CIVILIAN FRIEND to Mr Shekhar Gupta , Editir Indian Express, for his castagating article. I think the rely is apt for your comments also.

The Editor

The Indian Express

Dear Sir,

COMMAND AND DEMAND: AN OPEN LETTER FROM A CIVILIAN

I write with reference to the article “Chain of command, demand” by Shekhar Gupta (Ind Exp 4th. Oct 2008). Mr. Gupta has not only castigated the chiefs but also predicted dire consequences for them. Not difficult when your courage can bask in the knowledge that the armed forces cannot respond because of the various Acts. Fortunately I also don’t have to worry about these laws. Gupta has forgotten important issues and aspects of the whole affair. The present chiefs have less than 18 months to go. In 2010 you will have a brand new trio. If the chiefs were to go by what Gupta has implicitly suggested, three scenarios emerge.

Scenario 1: In the Golf Club at the 6th. Hole (recall it is the 6th. Pay Commission). Says one chief to the others - what do we do now? The other says- arre bhai chodo na, ki farak pendha. We are out in 18 months and then we would be looking forward to becoming Governors/Ambassadors etc. Let’s sign on the dotted line. No one will remember this after one year.

Scenario 2: Same place. The chiefs say - Hey, we are a democratic country remember? So why not conduct a poll through Indian Express by email/sms. All officers and men will vote on – should we accept the 6th. PC or not? One lucky officer and one lucky jawan will get a prize – not being posted to Siachen at all. After all, being a democratic government, Raksha Mantriji will congratulate us. See how they keep on saying – people supreme, people supreme. So for us, officers and soldiers supreme, no?

Scenario 3: The chiefs accept the proposals so as to maintain discipline and supremacy of the civilian government, but resign to register their protests. Sounds corny, but do you like it?

What would “General” Gupta choose? Let us know. With reasons. Yes, the whole affair has been mishandled. But by whom? By the Defence Minister who was probably acting on the advice of his Defence Secretary. So let Antony start by booting his Defence Secretary out. But he can’t. As you have rightly stated a more powerful government and a defence minister who knows the difference between a human butt and that of a rifle may pounce on the services. But there also has to be an army then. Will we have an army in 5-10 years? Why is the armed forces pay always in dispute? Because the establishment Mafia which includes netas, land owners, owners of assets and media want the country to be defended as cheaply as possible with the lives of other people’s children. How many of these categories have their progeny in the forces? If MPs can decide their emoluments and civil servants theirs, why can’t the armed forces do so directly with the political leadership? Why not make the Defence Ministry independent with its own budget like the Railway Ministry. We the people would contribute what it wants and we will pay only the difference to the Consolidated Fund (or is it Fraud) of India.

You have hit below the belt by stating that the present chiefs are not a patch on Thimayya, Maneckshaw, Lal, Sunderji, Tahiliani et al. But time and fate are great balancers – the army got the chiefs needed to deal with stalwarts like Patel, Krishna Menon, Indira Gandhi and Jagjivan Ram. Recall how Lt. Gen Thakur Nathu Singh asked Nehru how much experience he had as PM when the latter wanted Britishers to continue for 15 years after independence because Indian Generals did not have experience. That’s why Indian Express also had a Ramnath Goenka during the emergency. Today, even a Major (sorry for the pun), let alone a General, is more than sufficient. We have a Defence Minister who will not last 10 minutes in a debate with a Powell or a Rumsfeld. The Chinese Defence Minister will eat him raw in less than a minute. Read the recent book by a former Expressman, Arun Shourie – Are We Deceiving Ourselves Again – of how an outstanding soldier – Mao - made Nehru look like a boy scout on his first camp. Even after 45 years the Henderson-Brookes Report has not been released.

In 1963, moving the first no-confidence motion after the Chinese debacle, Acharya Kripalani said “I hope the Defence Minister can defend himself better than he has defended the nation.” Today, for the sake of the country I hope we can get one who can defend the nation and understands the blood group OG. Then he will have no necessity of defending himself. Has any babu spent 40% of his career in non-family stations? What happened to the grandiose plans of George Fernandes to send his secretaries to Siachen for a few days? Look at how your own comrades of the Fifth Column have dealt with the subject. For every article in favour of the armed forces, there are ten favouring the netas and babus. Not surprising since the armed forces do not give you licences etc. Look at the insipid and inane polls your paper carries – ‘Is Naveen Patnaik ineffective’ or ‘Is the Tata-Singur affair harmful to West Bengal’? Perhaps the next important questions will be – ‘Is the Ranbir-Deepika couple more romantic than the Saif-Kareena one’ or ‘whether Ganguly should be dropped’? How about one which asks – Shouldn’t our soldiers be paid more than our netas, babus and police? Lastly don’t forget that the Chiefs are only fighting for scales from 2007, while the army has been short-changed from around 1957. So who is going to make up for those 50 years – Indian Express?

There are stated and unstated hints and fears that the armed forces have become too big for their boots. This morbid fear is because hardly any neta has ever served in the forces. Assuming that the country is worth taking over, they already have. They have been forced to wear big boots. They are fighting on the borders, fighting insurgency (police work) within the borders, handling floods, earthquakes, tsunamis (all civil work) and very soon will be asked to help in finishing the stadiums for the Commonwealth Games and even win medals. Where do you think the bands and mass parades/drills are going to come from? They run some of the best schools, best medical college (AFMC) and the best engineering colleges (one in Pune for their children and also the CME). Each of their institutions, from NDA to IMA to DSSC to AWC to NDC, not to mention HAWS and CIWS, is world class. Their cantonments have always been like Singapore, ie better than Shanghai. Last but not least, their daughters dominate Bollywood and beauty contests. Unfortunately the law does not allow them to get into media or they will beat you there also. They are effectively in charge without sitting in Rashtrapathi Bhavan or Race Course Road because the other arms of state have proved to be totally inept as epitomised by the Home Secretary who said on TV that he is learning and getting his on-the-job-training from every bomb blast. Perhaps the fees are being paid by the lives of the aam aadmis.

Gupta’s article states that it is of national interest. I fully agree. I therefore reserve my right to send my response to the three HQs, the media and such other parties who are interested in national affairs. I am also including Mr. Gupta’s id in this email. The present chiefs may not be Thimayyas or Maneckshaws, but let us see whether Gupta is a Ramnath Goenka, even when we don’t have an emergency. Let’s see whether this article is printed, even in a sanitized form.

Yours faithfully,

T.R.RAMASWAMI
( amahen@gmail.com )
HOWLER said on Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 21:59

Whatever the SCPC logic is.The point that is being missed is, why is it that the services demands are not finding favour with anyone. SCPC already rejected them to be too unrealistic. The same happened when the committee of secretaries reviewd them. The cabinet finally considered them only to the extent reasonable to maintain the equilibrium.The fellow govt servants are opposing these demands tooth and nail. The other citizens of the country are convinced they dont deserve any more that what they have got or they are simply unconcerned. There isnt even a single informed person on the globe, who is buying the logic behind these demands! (Except some of the commenters on this blog who seem to have arrogated to themselves all the responsibility of putting forth a illogical case in their support based on half truths and selective interpretations. Remember the Don Quixote story? He goes flashing his sword in the darkness of ignorance and half truths sitting on a lame horse.)
Earlier, every one had some soft corner for the services and went along despite knowing the demands they were making were totally unjustified. The days of the military being revered as the holy cows are over. For the first time, in the context of the SCPC, they are being treated like the professionals and thats why people are loathe to giving them even a single penny extra than their worth. There has been a considerable interest in the masses, and hence consequent awareness, regarding the military issues in the country. What they are, what they do and what they are getting. The military can no longer get away selling some concocted emotional trash as they had been doing in the past. Thats why there is opposition to what they are being given. People are asking the justifications for what the country is paying them. Any argument put forward by the services makes a poor justification for these demands.
Merely running nonsensical propaganda stories in the media in support of their demands cuts no ice. They went even to the extent of roping in bollywood dollies for the purpose.Remember images of them gyrating to some stupid song with these men in uniform at some so called frward location! Whatever they may have hopd to achieve, it was just a propaganda overkill. Atleast when it is also a known fact that CPMFs are on these forward locations 24×7 without break. But did you see them advertising there deeds so prepostrously! Did you hear any other group of govt servants induldging in this shameful act? Is that the stuff professionals are made of? Is that the reason they should be paid more? Certainly it defies logic, SCPC or anything else.
Its no point projecting yourself as a holy cow thats world apart. the manner in which you have reacted to the SCPC and more importantly to the govt decisions, there is no distinction between you and other motley groups
of slogan shouting/striking govt servants, whom you like to refer as civilians! Where is the difference between the thought to not to accept pay commmisssion notification and or not to implement it vis-a-vis the open defiance of the govt authority. All these despite, getting the largest pay packet and most liberal allowances in the country when there are people doing much more crucial hard work than you, i.e. the CPMFs.
But as they say, a lie repeated a 1000 times appears to be true.
Truesoldier said on Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 22:21

IHave you people noticed? Livefist and Indian Military services Blogs have been blocked. See how determind the Babus are to screw the Armed Forces.
Raymonds said on Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 22:33

This is adressed to all my friends in MoD and Finance Ministry. I starts from here. When a brigadier is promoted to Maj Gen the MSP (Rs 6000) will be taken into acount and his new pay will be accordingly fixed. Say a Brig was drawing Basic Pay Rs 55000 when he was promoted to Maj Gen. In Maj Gen rank, his new scale of pay will be 55000 plus 6000 plus one increment. It means that Rs 6000 as MSP has been merged in his basic pay. Now that earstwhile MSP of Rs 6000 is part of his basic pay for all purposes including for ditermination of his status within Maj Gen rank, DA, HRA, travel entitlements, pension and even increments for future. If Maj Gen and above MSP becomes part of their basic and is taken into avccount even for working future increments whay not the same for Officers below maj Gen. There can not be two rules with respect to two components.
Any answer MoD and Ministry of Finance??? MSP even for working increments can not be legally denied to any one. Get set for another battle of anomalies…
HOWLER said on Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 22:34

paramilitary service pay v/s military service pay

1) I think all the readers of this blog will agree to one thing atleast i.e. there has never been more comprehensive and acrimonious debate amongst the govt employees regarding their roles/functions/duties/service conditions etc. than in the context of the sixth CPC. I read a comment in context of sixth cpc some where that “The public servants are gradually realising the limits of their own importance in the social structure - a harbinger of coaxial national development. Thanks to the blog owner. We are learning many things through this blog that we might not have learnt through face to face discussions”. I think it simply strikes the nail on the head in relation to this debate. There are services which have remained so egrossed in their self congratulatory eulogies that they simply refuse to see the scenario/ground realities that have emerged over the years. They wish to remain captive to the past even to the extent of developing a “frog in the well” syndrome. These remain afflicted with the quest for NON-EXISTENTexclusivity. Leading the pack are the IAS, IPS and of course the defence forces. At times, they also ridiculously cite relevant constitutional provisions where these services are mentioned to propagate the myth of exclusivity and supremacy!

2) I am a votary for the best compensation package for the govt servants that is available in the country. But when we talk about compensation packages, we essentially discuss “who is getting what, for doing what and why.” All the reasons/justifications being forwarded for better pay, allowances and other compensatory facilities for defence forces/IPS/IAS are more relevant for the paramilitary forces and certainly with much more urgency. The discontent that you speak about in the defence forces is much more profound in the paramilitary forces.

3) The defence forces predominantly harp on following reasons for grant of exclusivity and special treatment. While some of these may not be that relevant to IAF and Navy but certanly Indian Army has been bitterly crying loud about these.
-securing the nation to extent of the peril of life.
-restricted rights.
-difficult deployment conditions.
-extensive deployment in internal security duties.
-disturbed famiy life.
-short service span.
-not being represented in the pay commissions despite being one of the largest group of central Govt employees.

4) And defence forces cite following as the results of the denial of the exclusivity and “commensurate compensation” for the reasons in para 3 above:-
- lower preference for defence forces as a career
-shortages
-increased disciplinary/court cases
-suicides
-fragging/fratricide
-recruits opting for services rather than fighting arms within the force.
-lesser time for rest/training in between deployments.

5) Following are some of the assumptions they make & myths they propagate:-
-every recruit at any level was a promising talent and would have been the future CEO in private sector if he had not joined the forces!
-they are the most hard pressed service doing all the good things for nation while others are out to undo these acts!
-They are exclusively involved in securing the nation making the “supreme sacrifices” at every step!!

6) Now consider the factual position.

a) Constitutional provisions & Restricted rights :-
All paramilitary forces are raised under the constitutional provision by which the Central Govt can raise any Armed Force of the Union for security and ensuring integrity of the nation and the matters connected with these. It does so by acts passed by the parliament like the CRPF Act, BSF Act, ITBP Act etc. just like the ARMY Act. AirForce Act etc. In the constitution, and hence, in these acts also, the paramilitary forces are defined as the “Armed Forces of the Union”. Infact, if you go through these paramilitary acts like ITBP act, BSF act etc. you will find these are exact copies of the Army act. These acts define similar conditions of service including offences, punishments and justice delivery system for individuals subject to these acts as are stipulated in the Army act. At places even the language has not been changed! So, if there are GCM, PCM & SCM in defence forces, the paramilitary forces have corresponding GSFC,PSFC &SSFC where SFC stands for security force court and the rest including powers, composition etc are same!
As if this was not enough, in addition, the paramilitary forces function under all the rules & regulations which govern the civil services and remain appliable to them too.

b) Difficult service conditions, extensive deployment, disturbed family life & securing the nation:-
There is nothing exclusive that Defence forces have done that has not been done by paramilitary forces too(Yes, even Kargil). Take the case of Army, Except Siachen, there is no other area where one paramilitary force or the other is not there with it. Be it the LoC, insurgency in J&K and north east. All the things ie field area, fidayeens, insurgency, LoC, hieghts of Kashmir, wars, kargil, assam, tsunami, floods, peace missions abroad, cyclones, earth quakes…. are being handled by these paramilitary forces too. Yes, i know, i left out siachen, that is the only thing that armed forces can claim to be their USP today which is not being handled by paramilitary forces. While after a stint at LoC,insurgency (hard area), the armyman goes for some swank cantt(peace area) with family as per well established and definite practice,the paramilitary forces remain committed to manning the regular boundaries of the country, tackling the naxalite problem, law and order, routine security arrangements etc.. etc… The list is much longer and totally unpredictable. Their peace areas are Rann of Kuchch, Deep jungles of northeast, high altitude areas. To say these are inhospitable is merely cracking a joke. But to paramilitary persons, especially the border guarding forces, these are also their “family” locations. The men stay at posts on the border/places of deployment while their families at these so called family locations which can be any thing upto 200 -300 KMs behind or even more. Those men are lucky who actually get to spend even a couple of days in a month with their families in these so called family locations during the ‘family meet’ visit from their place of duty. And with no statutary provision in place for even such ‘family meet’ it is left to the descretion of the lowest level commanders to accord this ‘welfare’ to the men keeping in view the operational commitment. And these commanders are at their wits end to do so as the ‘operational committment’ remains perpetual &undefined with respect to the quantum as well as time and they are held responsible for any and every thing. It is thus not difficult to comprehend that even this family meet for few days remains a dream come true. With such a premium attached to few moments of family life, its easy to imagine that it is also the most vulnerable point for highest pressure. The family life is disturbed not only because one is not able to live with family but also because he is never aware when he will or if he ever will! Without any worthwhile system in place, family life remains so unpredictable, individual just cannot plan his routine domestic committments at all, leave aside emergency situation. That is the peace tenure that these paramilitary people “enjoy”. Most men prefer to keep their families back home rather than take them along to this horrible dispensation being sold to them as ‘family station’/'family life’.
Few people Know, that apart from the normal peace time role, parmilitary forces have an active war time role too under control of defence forces. So, the actual situation is that the paramailitary forces remain carrying out peaceful elections, maintaining law and order, guarding vital installations of the country, fighting insurgents/ militants, tackling naxalites, catching veerappans etc..etc.. And of course they remain manning the borders without any worthwhile system of relief. They also fight the wars alongside the army whenever they happen in between. They are the ones taking the first brunt of hostile onslaught and repulsing it and continue forever even after the hostilities are over.While the Army goes back to the barracks for rest amidst all the adulation and self congratulatory boasts once the war is over, their poor fledgling cousins are left behind carying on with their usual guarding the sanctity of boundaries of India, maintaining of law and order, guarding vital installations of the country,fighting militants/insurgents, tackling naxalites, catching veerappans etc..etc.. And of course, without any worthwhile system of relief. The poor guys are again ever busy ensuring the security and integerity of the country at all times i.e. pre, during and post war situation. They have their long lists of MVCs, VrCs, KCs, Shaurya Chakras, SMs, PPMGs,PMGs etc. yet they remain unsung heroes, rather, condemned to suffer silently.

c) Short span of service:-
The defence forces crib the short service span of their men. Remember it is a well announced and well explained procedure which every prospective recruit is well aware of at the time of joining the defence forces. An officer joining as SSC knows pretty well what his/her service span will be like and certainly with all the geniuses that are recruited by the defence forces they can plan it out. Incase they cant the defence force have a respectable exit mechanism with statutary system of session preperatory to the final exit where the individual can opt for a multitude of courses/training programs best suitd to his capabilities for start outside. This also includes tailormade courses in institutions like IIMs, Xavier’s etc. for which probably they wouldnt qualfy even the entrance exams in normal course. This is further strengthened by the well established network of rehbilitation boards with a dedicated brief for resettlement of this released faujis. And ofcourse dont forget the all pervasive ex-servicemen quota! And the life-long CSD/Exservicemen facilities. Any person not able to utilise this largess, probably, deserve to remain the way they are.

Now think of the situation in the paramilitary forces. Its all flawed from the very beginning! The recruits are not clear what they are joining from the very beginning. More so in the case of the border guarding forces. Those who join thinking them to be an offshoot of defence forces get the rudest of the shocks. They realise that despite the similar training and worse service conditions they are not treated any where even closer to the “elite” defence forces. Even though they may be operating shoulder to shoulder at places! Not to say, they are deprived of even the most basic amenities which the defence force are disregarding so matter of factly. While a paramilitary constable deployed in the remotest corner of the country, say the rann of kucch or keylong or lunglei, has to buy his soap, salt , food etc from the open market paying all the taxes to the govt and hefty premium to the guy making these things available to him at these god forsaken places! At the same time an army jawan/airman/sailor walks in to the swankest of the malls/stores( which they like to refer to as the CSD canteens) to shop for his needs in the comfort of climate controled environment even in the heart of the national capital! Ofcourse he doesnt have to be bothered about the taxes etc his uniform is excuse enough for the grateful govt to waive off( or sucking it out of the hapless paramilitary chap in the rann to subsidise this jawans indulgences) to the maximum.
But there are also those who join these paramilitary forces thinking that being ruled by the IPS they are joining a clone of police force. They are disillusioned from the training itself. They simply cant fathom the connection between the type of training, the role and tasks, copy of army act governing them vis-a-vis the khaki they are required to don or the IPS which rule them. For both the categories the only way to leave is to resign with out any benefits or sulk and live out the ordeal till one reaches pensionable service which incidentally is at least 20 years. No doubt the rate spf those seeking VRS is one of the highest in PMFs as a group in the central Govt.
Its a classic case of affliction with what can be called “third-gender” syndrome. Whatever may have been the vision of raising these PMFs, These forces have become nothing but the impotent cross of the Army and the Police just like the mule. It works the hardest, gets kicked the hardest and in the end suffers in silence cause it was created for being so.

Does any one quitting the defence forces will actually like to join these. Answer is no. The fact is even the existing quota of exservicemen remains unutilised fully. those exservicemen who join seek to complete the remaining time for pensionable service after counting their defence service and leave. Though 6th CPC in its wisdom has recommended the lateral shift from defence forces to PMFs, but it most certainly it will have few takers. How can you expect those running away from a way of life with all the present benefits to them to join some thing much worse off and deprived of any benefits therein. The dismal enrolment figure of exservicemen in the PMFs speaks the point aloud.
Its no surprise the that there is a virtual exodus from the PMFs and persons even with the slightest better capabilities are leaving. The shortages are more acute in percentage terms than probably even what the defence forces claim.Not to speak of the suicides, fratricides, fragging and what not.

Worst part is that while defence forces are sensitive to the problems and bargaining for better deal, where as the same problems which are more acute in PMFs are just brushed aside in the routine manner and even under the carpet.
After all, when COAS speaks for his organisation, its actually a GC which speaks, a GC who has risen to be the Chief facing all the rough and tumble of his organisation. The conviction just gets built in on its own in whatever he says. And who submits the case for the PMFs? Usually a person, probably shunted out of his parent cadre to a retiring room, and at times with no prior experience of the organisation with absolutely no sence of belonging. And he Knows very well what mules are meant for!

PMFs demand “equal pay for equal work” would ACTUALLY mean downsizing the benefits of the defence forces!
crazy said on Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 23:44

@ satyasaach. This is all bakwas. I want to know why no action has been taken against two chief till now for defiance of superior authority. These all concocted stories, if you have guts have a platform for complaints. I can assure you few thousand complaints per day on corruption in armed forces. This is straight from your so called cantonements. It is better now you stop questioning everything from media to public opinion, Indian Express, RM, Civil Services & Para Mil Services and everything else other than those three heads. Else glaring internal disparities among various arms within forces, among the forces and PBORs will show. For that matter why should Army, Navy & AF be equivalent. Navy takes 70-75% marks at entry, AF 65-70% in Army 50% general graduates can also scrap through. Thus better stop here.
Raymonds said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 1:03

Dear Honorable GoM on anomalies of Armed forces Pay,

The Bureacracy is all set to grind the Armed Forces of the Cuntry to dust as is evident from their treatment of MSP. The treatment of MSP as dispensed by the Pay commission is as follows.

page 14, para1.2.21

Performance of duties beyond the normal call should, in the revised sheme of things, result in higher performance related incentive. The specefic problems faced by defence forces personell on account of rigours of military life are, however, proposed to be compensated by an additional element of pay termed Military Service Pay (MSP).

page 51, para 2.2.22 (vii)

An employee in higher grade pay will be senior to an employe in lower grede pay. In case of employee drawing the same grade pay, priority should be governed by total emoluments drawn, including NPAin the case of doctors amd MSP in case of defence personnel.

page 52 para 2.3.13

Military service pay shall count as pay for all purposes except for computing the annual increments. However the status of the Defence Forces officers will be ditermined by the grade pay attached to their post as in the case with civilians.

page 76 para 2.3.11

Once the officer switches over to the CPMFs, MSP………will be counted for fixation of pay….

Waht does tha above mean:

MSP is pay for all purposes except for calculating increments. This is wrong stipulation as on promotion to Maj gen MSP becomes part of pay and therefater is part of being taken into account for calculating future increment. If it is treated so for Maj gens why not for people below them. Similarily it was stipulated by the Pay Commssion that once the officer switches over to CPMFs, his MSP will be taken into account for fixation of his pay. It menas subsequent to that Rs 6000 of his earstwhile MSP becomes eligible for all things including for calculation of annual increment. Why then this treatment to Army officers upto Brigs that their MSP is Chui Mui (untouchable) for calculation annual increment.

Second part that emerges is that, MSP is pay for all purposes including rates of DA, HRA< transfer Grants, travel intilement and for the purposes of ditermination of seniority within the same garde.

The definition which The Mod gazzette has provided is misleading and does not cover all the above elements as provided for by the Pay Commission.

MSP is elible for calculation of annual increments in all other cases but for officers upto Brigadiers it is untouchable. That is simply application of double standards on one element of pay within the same organisation and under the same govt.

Kindly set it Right. MSP should be made part of pay for all purposes including for calculation of annual increment as in the case of Maj Gen and above.
Raymonds said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 1:09

It has been stipulated and ruled by the Pay commission that when (as and when) the Army officers is shifted to CPOs ? PMF he will be fixed Rs 6000 above..

Why are these guys crying???

For what reson???

Army Officer is to be taken at Rs 6000 baobe in basic pay…

What is the doubt???

read Pay Commission Recommendations…
navybala said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 5:57

Dear crazy, I do not know who you may be, but I fully agree with you about the status and the stepmotherly treatment the MNS officers get from the adminstrative side as well as from their own directorate. There is no one to look after them who is rendering a commendable service to the humans. The army chief”s letter asking for degrading their pay is really not acceptable to one and all. When the officers cry for their status and parity, no one considers this issue as well as the pbors. Even the sixth CPC has lowered their MSP that they are in combat role, but when posted in field areas in war, I don’t think enemy’s bombs and bullets will spare them. Is there any one to listen and take care of them
bala said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 7:39

@crazy&abc I fully agree with you both The MNS officers got a little benifit only in this CPC. There is a saying” VARAM KODUTHATHAM PERUMAL, ATHAI PUDUNGUZHAM ANUMAR” means the lord venkateswara has granted but the hanuman has snatched it. The same story goes here also. The AMC officers have earlier made a change in MNS uniform also. There is no care and take the case of them and the step motherly treatment they get in their working place from the administration side as they being from a common cadre and work under all the three service officers/organisations. It is true that they do not get any night duty allowance and no-practising pay and enjoy the luxry as the AMC and other service officers enjoy. Even though they could not do much to these noble service cadre, atleast the AMC officers and others should not degrade them monetrily atleast. The COAS should reconsider his letter and funish the people who have misguided him
ranawat said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 8:39

The present situation has led to immense demoralization in the Armed Forces……a very dangerous trend indeed. ….these middle level officers - Lt Cols/Wg Cdrs/Cdrs are responsible for military assets worth several crores. …..something more than the entire annual budget of the paramilitary forces…..imagine a pilot flying a fighter plane worth 300 crores……we can not afford demoralisation to creap in….lest it leads to the creation of several more purohits( Lt col Purohit arrested for bomb blasts)….actually the ISI must be waiting for an opportunity like this……to lure demoralised officers with money…..The govt needs to act fast so that such things never never happen in this great country of ours
SATYASAACH said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 8:41

Take 6 CPC to task and scrap it. Not only it has dissatisfied everybody but brought different branches of the Govt at loggerheads with each other, which definitely doesnot auger well for our beloved country.We all require a harmonious relation between Civil Services, Armed Forces, ParaMilitary, infact everybody to help our great country reach greater heights.Please its my request it is useless to throw mud at each other, better we move forward and help build a strong nation.Jai Hind
Raymonds said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 10:07

Army Officer when transferred to CPO under new dispensation, to be approved soon, will be fixed for 6000 above the pay last drwn by him in the Army.

That is the equation Pay Commission has drawn between two officers of the same service lenght and status. These CPO officers are unnecessarily crying. The Pay commsion clearly puts Army Officer Rs 6000 above in Basic Pay over his CPO counterpart.

They are unnecessarily creating a “Hava” and “Hallabullu” of imaginary equations.
SATYASAACH said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 11:28

Please STOP THIS MUDSLINGING. We all love our country and countrymen. Take 6 CPC to task and scrap it. Not only it has dissatisfied everybody but brought different branches of the Govt at loggerheads with each other, which definitely doesnot auger well for our beloved country.We all require a harmonious relation between Civil Services, Armed Forces, ParaMilitary, infact everybody to help our great country reach greater heights.Please its my request it is useless to throw mud at each other, better we move forward and help build a strong nation.Jai Hind
Raymonds said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 11:36

Dear GoM.

and
Dear Madame Shushma Nath, IAS, Secretary Expenditure, Ministry of Finance, Former Member Secretary, the 6th CPC,

I believe the file of GoM on Armed Forces Pay Anomalies is lying with you. The GoM have wisely and rightly done so. If they have not done so they should do it. Any one who starts the problem must end it. There is a saying in Punjabi “Jo Bole wo Buwa Khole” (the one who replies, then will open the door). Since the all the problems have emanated from your end, You are the best person to solve those now.

Madame, the entire problem has emanated by you not having taken the rank pay into account while preparing the Table given on page 73. Rank pay has been part of basic pay componant since 4th CPC and there is no point eliminating that in 2008 and thereby correct History by degrading eaxch and every rank one step down.

Madame, let us put that aside if it is Controversial. Then Correct the history by going back to the equations of the third CPC. Let that be the bench mark if Rank Pay has become so problematic.

Madame, If you feel Armed Forces made hay after 4th CPC due to Rank pay componant and the injustice needs to be put in order, then please go back and put the things as they were in 1952, just after we gained Independence as per ranks of Precedence in 1952 which was amanded then.

Madame, lots of Cadres including IAS, IPS and other services have made lots of hay under the Sunshine of their own influences and powers, Cadre reviews, and proximity to power. Lots of imbalance have occurred and it is not my case at all to correct history every where and at every step. But why single out rank pay which originated by the desire of Pay Commssions not agreeing to Service proposals. This time around you have not been magnemoious even to consider Service Proposals.

Madame, hence I submit, why have you chosen only the dumb and deaf Armed Forces to be the target for punishment. They have crated least opportunities and avenues under the Sun Shine of Independence. If at all, there has been any progress for them, it was snatched by the greedy competing Bureaucracies right from CCS ti IPS and Upwards.

Madame, please be fare and do not get stuck with IAS phobia of obtaining six years seniority at each and every Armed Forces rank. That ICS phobia earlier needed redressal as Army and ICS worked together upto district levels of administration to maintain “Colony”. It has no meaning now as Army has only MoD IAS to interact with. So the young Army lad bossing over an aged Civil Servant is no longer the real issue any where as it used to be. It has no longer any socio-psychological ramifications needing assidious balance. Armed forces have emerged as the real Armed Forces of the Country no longer officered by the Gora sahib needed to be despised by Kalu Ram, ICS. Do not play Colonial games madame.

Madame, I am well aware, and it is evident how IAS wants to be senior to Lt Col at least by six years at director level. Agreed but his desire has gone a little beyond as he wants to stand above an old Colonel and even older Brigadier of 30 years of Service. Some one rightly observed that IAS have become too Greedy..to attain balance.

Madame, it is high Time, IAS pays respect to Uniformed men older than them in age and Service and not lesser in status, historically or otherwise. The situation now is reverse. The Ganges has started flowing back to Goumukh. Request restore balance as what Consideration Kalu Ram, ICS, needed earlier now is the requirement of Sena Naik, General, of your country.

Madame, balance is the name of game I suppose. Director gets two increments at 13 years of service so he becomes two years senior. His one years training is Service, so he is three years senior. Give him an advantage of one more year. Put Lt Col of 14 years if not 13 years in PB-4. So director remains senior to Lt Cols as per same age profiles. That would bring Director to somewhat Col level. just for three years.

However, give this advantage back to Armed Forces at Brig and Maj Gen level. Grant Maj Gen NFSG to selected officers at 22 years service, which IAS is getting at 16years. Balance must be overall and not only at Director level.

Regarding MSP, if it becomes part of Pay at Maj Gen level for all purpose including future increments, why deny the same privilege to lesser folks who actually deserve it more.MSP becomes part of Basic Pay fixation on induction into CPMF and thereby entiled to every thing but is nothing while in fauzi service. That is not logical and justifiable.

You have been granted a historical opportunity by the GoM. I am sanguine an IAS of your stature will make best use of it to restore confidence in IAS and bring in inter services amity. A human being comes to live to contribute and not for destruction.
Force1 said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 11:58

Dear Crazy,What an apt name you have chosen!If u are not MNS then u r certainly a PBOR married to one.Your language betrays you - most probably you are a NA?ORA! correct me if I am wrong.I give in that their duties are tough and onerous and they are highly overworked.Also, the fact that they are better qualified and superior to MBBS,MD,DMs and that they are the ones who are actually treating the patients.I am quite sure that your sentiments will find echo with the 6th pay commission and the other powers that be, so that they can be released from service and henceforth all patients will be treated by the MNS.Mr Anthony and all ,when they fall sick will not be attended by the Doctors in R&R but by the Sisters( in case that term is not demeaning).Moreover, a special sanction willbe taken out ,so that they can all take over the hospitals in civil and provide an opportunity for general populace to take advantage of their dedication and superior knowledge.
As for the 6th PC anomalies- they were not created by the 6CPC but by the Committee of secretaries(Lt Cols were at par and would have entered PB4 - see any pay and allowance website and feed the salary)The real suckers have been the AMC,who have suffered not only a demotion to PB3,but also are not being permitted in SAG at 20 years of service as per CGHS rules due to the internal contradictions of the services.They are also not unfortunately permitted to leave. However, As crazy has suggested ,the MNS can now take over the AMC Officers will be permitted to leave. Thanks and regards
Kan said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 12:12

Air Mshl SY Savur and Lt Gen Jacob are such respected personalities that it is just prudent that learned individuals of all forces read their comments. as far as CPMF guys comparing Lt Col with their force structure well I hold CPMFs in great esteem but their cannot be any comparisond firstly because a person who is in charge of an aircraft costing hundreds of crores and a missile battery costing another hundred crore and in charge of ship costing thousands of crores, their status can not be defined by kidtalk of number and manpower. Actually by that logic an IPS incharge of thousand Homeguard should be much higher in status. No one repeat no one but the govt of india would decide after understanding that who is responsible for the mischief and does th armed forces of the nation desrve this. THe controversy is so unfortunate and especially comments of few IAS officers who I thought are matured. Just for few comments on the selection grade rank of Lt Col/Wg Cdr/Cdr:- Not all officers become Lt Cols if they have not secured the required AR(appraisal Report) gradings, Passed promotional exams(Two), have appropriate Medical category. Besides this Most officer cadre has to undergo proifessional Standardisation every year repeat every year to maintain their professional currency. Also being subjected to PROFESSIONAL INSPECTIONs by dedicated orgaisation. If an individual is truly Indian he would at the least stop downgrading its own armed forces . Please Remeber this is INDIAN ARMED FORCES and not forces belonging to any other nation.
Force1 said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 12:16

Dear Crazy and Howler(again how Apt),I just forgot to add that all the Officers hold commission at the pleasure of the President, but the MNS at the pleasure of the GOI. And OOPs,there was also a ruling to this effect by the Hon’able supreme Court,just about 2 years ago, when the issue of Uniforms came up.We maybe old but we have certainly not started forgetting,regards
Kan said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 12:26

I address all who have been giving their enlightened views on What Army is and what is an Army Officer, for a change I am actually referring to all Army as well as CPMF Officers sans IPS officers who side step into DIG level and above after half the service of regular cadre service of CPMF Officers. Armed Forces have a task to perform and they have done it to their best capability and to the satisfaction of the nation. Has IAS and IPS done that ????? Well why IAS needs to be paid extra just becuase they have qualified an exam well those in doubt referring to 10 th pass becoming Colonels, please check your facts and do not make your fool in public without adequate knowledge. I am sure courts are capable of deciding this matter in a better way and to thos who are denigrating their armed forces i pity . You do not become smarter than your parents by spitting on them , least you can do is to give repect to the most sincere organisation / institution which has delivered consistently since Indian Independence and has a rich history going back 1000 years. DO YOU HAVE ANY OTHER INSTITUTION LIKE THAT ?????????? To few enjoying kidtalk of stating MNS is better than AMC, MNS stands for Military Nursing Service. I am sure people will understand that where in the world we compare nurse vis a vis doctor. Well I am not at all demeaning nursing service or the nurses who have aspecioal task to perform but please ponder for a moment where does nursing in class A job . Military has a special requirement and hence it is retained this way , please respect it and do not use the blog to vent away frustation. To remaining people if you are true Indian do not denigrate either Army or CPMFs –Because they have results to prove their performance—Imagine in a riot war or catastrophe when you stand with you wife and children , whom would you approach–IAS or IPS or Armed Forces / CPMF personnel——-Believe me they deserve at the least Honour and dignity.
PRABHAKAR said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 12:33

A very sad story indeed. Do people think that the defence forces of india is made of only commissioned officers!! What about the millions and millions of jawans and JCOS who have suffered and are suffering in utter silence, in defending this country. There is none to talk about their fate. Even the so called media are worried about officers and the soldiers are conveniently forgotten. Coz they cannot talk in the name of discipline. The Miss india and universe may be the daughters of Officers but not the daughters of Jawans. why should they be penalised?? A technical grade sergeant in IAF who was in the pre-revised scale of 5000-6500 is now pushed to PB-1 while the civilian counterparts are placed in PB-2. The respnsibilty of the sergeant much more than a Upper Division Clerk. He is expected to keep the fighting bird “battle fit” all times and in all places. Similarly placed maintenance staff in airlines get a salary of 75,000 plus perks. POOR JWAWANS.
Rohit said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 12:56

@ Howler 22.34/ 5 Nov. I appreciate your effort in composing the long diatribe. I assume you are from a CPO (BSF ?) and your organisation does deserve much more than what it gets vis a vis the other govt orgs. However please consider your response to the matter of “Short Span of Service Life”. You claim that the individual should have been aware beforehand. Sir, the Individual was indeed aware but at the same time was also aware that he was being partially compensated by getting higher pay than any other govt employee for equal period of service rendered. However, now that edge is being taken away. This is what is upsetting the services. And yes, I will not hesitate to join your org, because we do respect the officers of the PMF/ CPO for their service at Lunglei, Rann of Kachh etc. and also because your org does not put a barrier where only 30% officers can pass into PB-4 despite having outstanding career reports and winning awards for dedication while in service.
sreelekha said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 13:31

Dear all,The issue of pay parity of Lt. Cols and equivalent with that of Civilian Directors is not a genuine demand of the armed forces. To suddenly claim that these officers are to be bracketed in PB-4 at par with Civilian Directors appears to be part of the grand design of the armed forces with fearful consequences for the country.

It is not only painful but also fearsome that the top brass of the armed forces have ganged-up together in trade-union like manner and are clearly defying the authority of the government. The following facts mentioned below bring to light the truth behind the issue:

(a) The pay scales of Civilian Directors and Lt Cols prior to the Sixth Pay Commission were as under: Civilian Directors: Rs.14,300-18,300 while Lt Cols: Rs.13,500-17,100. As per laid down policy of the Government of India, the end of the scale is to be compared for determining the seniority. It would thus be clear from the above that the Civilian Directors (having the end-scale of Rs 18,300) are senior. It is absolutely absurd on the part of armed forces to claim that the Lt. Cols are at par with Civilian Directors. Lt. Cols have never been designated as Directors in any organization even in a mixed organization such as MES, BRO etc.

(b) The pay scale of Lt. Col (Rs 13500-17100) includes the disturbance allowance and the edge given to defence forces over their civilian counterpart. In this connection, para 2.3.6 of SCPC on Page No. 72 may kindly be referred. In addition to the above, a rank pay of Rs 1,600 has also been given to them. However, the parity of Lt. Cols had been maintained with that of civilian Joint Directors in all the Pay Commission reports. Therefore, claiming that Lt. Cols have been drawing more pay scale than Civilian Directors considering the disturbance allowance, the edge given to the service officers and the rank pay is mischievous and illusionary.

(c) Lt. Cols and equivalent in the armed forces have been traditionally designated as Joint Directors (JD). In this connection, Army Order No. 8/85 dated Feb 1985 may kindly be referred. Accordingly, equivalent ranked officers in Air HQ and Naval HQ have been redesignated vide Air HQ letter No. AirHQ/20701/792/Org. dated Mar 9, 2003 and Naval HQ No. VCNS/101/T-memo/2003 dated Sep 12, 2003, respectively. It is thus obvious that they have been working as Joint Directors.

(d) Based on recommendations of A.V. Singh Committee Report, the government in the year 2004 implemented a scheme for time scale promotions for the armed forces. By virtue of this, the Army officers are getting automatic time-bound promotions from the rank of Lieutenant to the ranks of Captain, Major, Lt. Colonel and Colonel (time scale) without undergoing any process of selection. This enables, a newly-commissioned Army officer to become Lt. Col in first 13 years without facing even a single selection board. In fact, the effective service rendered is only 9 years because 4 years are spent in obtaining their engineering degree. Whereas, the civilian officers from Central Group A Services recruited through All-India exam by UPSC get the rank of Director mostly in 18 to 20 yrs. On the other hand, the civilian counterparts are required to face rigorous DPCs at every stage for earning their promotions to reach the level of Directors. On the other hand, the
first selection board faced by the Army officer is only at the level of a colonel. Therefore, there could be no valid reason as to why a Lt Col is to be put in PB-4. It simply means that an officer would reach the highest pay band (PB-4) (i.e. upto Major Gen level in pay) without facing even a single selection board.

(e) The Army, since Independence, has been treating the civilian officers of the mixed organizations like Military Engineer Services (MES), Border Roads Organisation (BRO), Coast Guards, Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO), etc with contempt. Senior civilian officers are put to tremendous humiliation by illegally forcing them to work under much junior Army officers. The other similarly placed cadre officers in BRO have also not got relief in spite of intervention by courts.

(f) The Army officers are posted in departments like Military Engineer Services (MES), Border Road Organisation (BRO) etc. at a higher post than their legitimate level. This illegitimate posting has been not only causing ripples in the organization but also has made them to claim the posts legitimate.

(g) The Army officers of the rank of Lt Cols are also posted as Garrison Engineers based on A.V. Singh Committee Report. The Garrison Engineer post is tenable by a Civilian Deputy Director in the pay scale of Rs. 10,000-15,200. This shows that the Lt Cols in MES hold the appointments of Dy Directors/Jt Directors and also the illegitimate post (as SOI) at par with that of a Director.

(h) At the time of second cadre review in Army in1985, all posts of Lt Col like Unit Commanders, were made tenable by Colonel. Posting of a Lt Col to paramilitary organization was not touched by second cadre review as these are ex-cadre appointments.

While comparing the emoluments, the armed forces have conveniently concealed the fact that there is special allowance for every act they do besides hefty Military Service Pay and Rank Pay like Free Ration, Uniform Allowances, Post Graduation Allowances, Field Allowances, Free Housing, Free Electricity & Free Water supply etc.
k.jayaraman said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 14:35

Dear Sirs, I am happy to see lot of responses and updates. Positively we Indian are improving our awareness. Since internet is open to all let us not give specific datas about military/Civil details and also not to write any unrelated things. Thanks to all.We do hope we will get revised orders early.
crazy said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 15:25

@ Navy wala, thanks for appreciation. @ranawat, please don’t link Purohit with this otherwise it will expose you guys i.e extracting good payment from congress and behind the scenes trying to help Bajrang Dal and inteurn BJP through actions of Purihit and party. It is amazing how can Purohit who served with intelligence wing can do such a thing without knowledge of his peers in so called highly discplined setup. This is tip of iceberg. For the sake of Nation, I feel this all turn out to be false, Otherwise Gol help India. @SATYASAACH Now you are in inline. Mud-slinging is not good and therefore request all armymen to stop. This form and others are bsicall filled with filthy stuff specially from Army chaps. There is hardly anything from AF & Navy. @Force1 equally apt is your name i.e. want to force your opinion. Iam crazy because I am noway connected to either of fighting group. I have apprehensions as concerned citizens and I represent deprived / helpless and not heard. I don’t understand what is NA?ORA! you refered to me. Don’t put words into my mouth, Where did I say that NMS are superior to AMC. Check back that was someone else and I did not agree with him. Every organ has got a different job. I was only trying to demonstrate that AMC officers are not at parity with MNS They are much but higher by means of 10% basic above & 25% NPA. It is your own Army chief who deliberately say that MNS are at par with AMC. I did not question why AMC get more 10% basic & NPA. I understand the real motive of this letter by Army Chief. In the grab of AMC Vs MNS they are trying to address something else. Firsty para of letter mentioned about AMC Vs MNS, whereas the last para mentions about NMS officers in relation to service officer. That is what is true colour. AMC officers should understand that they are being used in the process. Regarding AMC officers in PB3, you have got all chiefs listening to you, why don’t you sent another letter to RM, they will consider you worth putting in PB-4. Thanks you refered to that that parchment issue. If you are not aware, get your facts right that MNS also hold commission at the pleasure of president. Someone is required to educate you properly. The uniform issue was your creation if you are AMC officer, reason was that patient will not differenciate between doctor and nursing officer. see who got scared here, the reason was laughable. Do you have copy of that supreme court order, it merely said that issue of uniform is prerogative of Army chief untill unless it is derogatory. I am only questioning the mentality and nothing else. Sooner the armed Forces change, the better it will be. I need not to go on pay commission site for reading pay commission report, I have it printed copy with me running into more than 1200 pages. Anyway thanks for making me married but I am yet to. Regards !
debu said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 16:43

Dear all,The issue of pay parity of Lt. Cols and equivalent with that of Civilian Directors is not a genuine demand of the armed forces. To suddenly claim that these officers are to be bracketed in PB-4 at par with Civilian Directors appears to be part of the grand design of the armed forces with fearful consequences for the country.

It is not only painful but also fearsome that the top brass of the armed forces have ganged-up together in trade-union like manner and are clearly defying the authority of the government. The following facts mentioned below bring to light the truth behind the issue:

(a) The pay scales of Civilian Directors and Lt Cols prior to the Sixth Pay Commission were as under: Civilian Directors: Rs.14,300-18,300 while Lt Cols: Rs.13,500-17,100. As per laid down policy of the Government of India, the end of the scale is to be compared for determining the seniority. It would thus be clear from the above that the Civilian Directors (having the end-scale of Rs 18,300) are senior. It is absolutely absurd on the part of armed forces to claim that the Lt. Cols are at par with Civilian Directors. Lt. Cols have never been designated as Directors in any organization even in a mixed organization such as MES, BRO etc.

(b) The pay scale of Lt. Col (Rs 13500-17100) includes the disturbance allowance and the edge given to defence forces over their civilian counterpart. In this connection, para 2.3.6 of SCPC on Page No. 72 may kindly be referred. In addition to the above, a rank pay of Rs 1,600 has also been given to them. However, the parity of Lt. Cols had been maintained with that of civilian Joint Directors in all the Pay Commission reports. Therefore, claiming that Lt. Cols have been drawing more pay scale than Civilian Directors considering the disturbance allowance, the edge given to the service officers and the rank pay is mischievous and illusionary.

(c) Lt. Cols and equivalent in the armed forces have been traditionally designated as Joint Directors (JD). In this connection, Army Order No. 8/85 dated Feb 1985 may kindly be referred. Accordingly, equivalent ranked officers in Air HQ and Naval HQ have been redesignated vide Air HQ letter No. AirHQ/20701/792/Org. dated Mar 9, 2003 and Naval HQ No. VCNS/101/T-memo/2003 dated Sep 12, 2003, respectively. It is thus obvious that they have been working as Joint Directors.

(d) Based on recommendations of A.V. Singh Committee Report, the government in the year 2004 implemented a scheme for time scale promotions for the armed forces. By virtue of this, the Army officers are getting automatic time-bound promotions from the rank of Lieutenant to the ranks of Captain, Major, Lt. Colonel and Colonel (time scale) without undergoing any process of selection. This enables, a newly-commissioned Army officer to become Lt. Col in first 13 years without facing even a single selection board. In fact, the effective service rendered is only 9 years because 4 years are spent in obtaining their engineering degree. Whereas, the civilian officers from Central Group A Services recruited through All-India exam by UPSC get the rank of Director mostly in 18 to 20 yrs. On the other hand, the civilian counterparts are required to face rigorous DPCs at every stage for earning their promotions to reach the level of Directors. On the other hand, the
first selection board faced by the Army officer is only at the level of a colonel. Therefore, there could be no valid reason as to why a Lt Col is to be put in PB-4. It simply means that an officer would reach the highest pay band (PB-4) (i.e. upto Major Gen level in pay) without facing even a single selection board.

(e) The Army, since Independence, has been treating the civilian officers of the mixed organizations like Military Engineer Services (MES), Border Roads Organisation (BRO), Coast Guards, Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO), etc with contempt. Senior civilian officers are put to tremendous humiliation by illegally forcing them to work under much junior Army officers. The other similarly placed cadre officers in BRO have also not got relief in spite of intervention by courts.

(f) The Army officers are posted in departments like Military Engineer Services (MES), Border Road Organisation (BRO) etc. at a higher post than their legitimate level. This illegitimate posting has been not only causing ripples in the organization but also has made them to claim the posts legitimate.

(g) The Army officers of the rank of Lt Cols are also posted as Garrison Engineers based on A.V. Singh Committee Report. The Garrison Engineer post is tenable by a Civilian Deputy Director in the pay scale of Rs. 10,000-15,200. This shows that the Lt Cols in MES hold the appointments of Dy Directors/Jt Directors and also the illegitimate post (as SOI) at par with that of a Director.

(h) At the time of second cadre review in Army in1985, all posts of Lt Col like Unit Commanders, were made tenable by Colonel. Posting of a Lt Col to paramilitary organization was not touched by second cadre review as these are ex-cadre appointments.

While comparing the emoluments, the armed forces have conveniently concealed the fact that there is special allowance for every act they do besides hefty Military Service Pay and Rank Pay like Free Ration, Uniform Allowances, Post Graduation Allowances, Field Allowances, Free Housing, Free Electricity & Free Water supply etc.
D Ashitanand said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 16:55

@crazy
serving a few years in IAF before being kicked out doesn’t make you an expert on defence affairs.
D Ashitanand said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 16:59

Reverting the IAS Directors to PB3 with Grade pay of 7600 along the Lt Col will actually solve everything and save the govt a lot of money too!
crazy said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 17:47

@D Ashitanand . Thanks. for someone I am MNS, for others I am AF. You can beat Bejan Daruwala in guessing. I know more than enough about all the three forces, Para Military Forces, Civil Sevices, Politicians like any other tax payer because his pocket is used for all these. You tell me which service you wanted to know about. If I reply to all your queries, will U consider that I am present in Army, Navy, AF, MNS, CG, BSF, CRPF, IAS IPS etc… Oh MyGod, I am thrown out of AF?? What an imagination? I know why U say this because I have raised voices for PBOR, so you call be PBOR, and yet when I take up MNS cause you call me MNS and finally when I say that pilot gets more than an engineer you are intigated and think i am one of AF thrown out during 1997 muteny. There is no end to it. Following article should enlight you guys:

Is AVSC the Panacea?

By
AIR MARSHAL
Sharad Y Savur (Retd)
Former AOC-in-C
SOUTHERN AIR COMMAND

Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru was not convinced till 1962 that there was a need to expand the Armed Forces. When it was done, what followed was that young men in their hundreds (yours truly included) joined the Army (Emergency and Permanent Commissions) and the Air Force (Permanent Commissions only). Army and Air HQ must have been happy that the long awaited expansion was taking place but were they aware of what they were letting loose on themselves?

Perhaps, having served in WWII, a mass mobilisation would be followed by de-mobilisation scenario was visualised. It might have been forgotten that most of newly commissioned officers would serve for 20, even 40 years thence. IAF never had its 40 combat squadrons. The number of squadrons and other increased, many on paper, but did not keep up with the human tide. Fighter Squadrons (Sqns), each with between 10 to 14 serviceable aircraft, were flooded with anywhere from 40 to 60 often more, pilots. Transport aircraft Sqns had between 120 and 150 pilots to fly a similar number of aircraft. Often the junior-most officers were at the “disposal” (no pun intended) of the Sqn Adj. The best solution then was to attach these officers to different units away from their parent units – often for months on end. The Flt Cdr neither had the time nor the flying effort to keep them occupied. Fighter pilots flew as supernumerary pilots in transport aircraft (note the irony?) to meet the requirement of 12 hours a month to be eligible to draw Flying Bounty. The transport Sqn’s own pilots often flew as supernumerary to the 10th degree for their flying bounty. It was joke that the Il-14 (seating capacity 28), had 10 pilots as supernumerary pilots. Dispersion of pilots, lack of flying effort with resultant lack of job satisfaction was combined with dilution of authority, responsibility and accountability and de-motivation followed.

Add to this stagnation for till 1976 eligible officers were considered for promotion in their turn and placed in waiting lists – to be promoted when or if a vacancy arose before they superannuated. In 1978, the first signs of the problem of the influx started to show. So the first cadre review to increase the vacancies at the Select grade – Wg Cdr and above was proposed and implemented. It was to provide career progression to the 1963-1969 commissioned officers (known as The Bulge). Armed Forces got a large number of higher vacancies after sacrificing some lower vacancies, at the insistence of the Finance (Defence) – some sort of no loss, no gain basis (I cannot recollect the term used but it was quaint).

It was followed by the New Promotion Policy (NPP), also called Deep Selection Policy (DSP). DSP would consider all eligible officers in a seniority band for promotion against expected vacancies in the period April to March. The promotions were based on merit and not on seniority. It was reported that there were hiccups in the discussions, humourous suggestions. How could IAF have two Air Marshals in a Command HQ – the AOC-in-C and SASO? Should Vice Chief of Air Staff, AOsC-in-C Western Air Command and Eastern Air Command be designated Vice Air Chief Marshals? Promotion Boards (PBs) were conducted and officers selected by the PB placed in two separate lists - the Main Select List (sure to be promoted) or MSL and the Reserve Select List (RSL) – might be promoted in the eventuality of a vacancy arising (if some one from the MSL was medically unfit etc).

So the bulge started to move upwards (unlike what happens in real life). But the next hurdle was that the DSP was confined to Sqn Ldr to Air Cmde ranks. Air Cmdes were empanelled and cleared for promotion on “Minimum Performance Criteria” and medical fitness. Every Air Cmde waited for his turn that determined promotion – a mixture of the date of birth, seniority in the list, and the availability of a vacancy.

Around the time the Ajai Vikram Singh Committee (AVSC) was constituted in 2001, there came about a change in the promotion policy for Air ranks in the IAF. CAS discussed a New Promotion Policy (NPP) in January 2002 and it was approved by MoD and implemented in March 2002. It was intended to remove stagnation and accelerate promotion of air officers purely on merit. The NPP followed the same norms of PBs to provide career progression for Air Cmdes and AVMs by merit, but a separation policy was not included, perhaps intentionally. Most Air Cmdes and AVMs had between 1 to 2 years to superannuate in the ranks at first consideration or two attempts more at attaining the higher rank. Therefore separation would be more or less automatic, unless an air officer preferred to leave earlier. The CAS also encouraged any officer who wanted to leave the IAF to do so. Both actions resulted in addressing the issue of stagnation and upward career mobility.

The Army continued with its old policy – briefly, “be approved” for promotion and wait for a vacancy when one’s turn came up. The Navy professed that it had no problem of stagnation. In the meantime, in 2003 the AVSC forwarded its recommendations to the Govt. The first instalment of AVSC proposed vacancies were released in December 2004 by the COAS at the Army Day Parade, much to the chagrin of the CNS and CAS. It was to be the panacea for stagnation of Lt Cols and below and their equivalents. Much clamour followed on the timing and much else of the announcement. But lost in the dust of the clamour was whether the Armed Forces were diluting all that they held of value – responsibility, accountability, and izzat.

The Armed Forces were simultaneously clamouring for more officers as massive shortages in the Officer cadre were projected and reported. Let us step aside and consider – 1. Does a situation of 2001 still exist in 2004? 2. Is there some other method to ensure the career progression of deserving officers? 3. What would be the effect of such a large number of upgradations on the existing command, communications and reporting, more importantly the authority, responsibilities and accountability from which the Armed Forces derive their strength? 4. Finally, do the Armed Forces have the infrastructure to fit in these “upgraded” vacancies? Even as late as 21st October 2008, the RM is reported to have stated that there is a shortage of 11,119 officers in the Army, of 1359 officers in the Navy and 1352 in the Air Force. Have the Armed Forces taken these into consideration while accepting the increase to AVSC II levels?

The vacancies were identified prior to 2001 but how does it help the Armed Forces if the approval and release is in 2008? Weren’t at least 500 officers retiring per year from the 1963-69 batches? Weren’t the course after 1969 smaller – firstly because the Armed Forces needed lesser number of officers? And that led to the beginning of the shortages cycle – more superannuating from than joining the Armed Forces? AVSC II gives 1896 higher posts now - 20 new Lt Gen (+ 68 existing ones); 75 new Maj Gen (+216 existing ones); 322 new Brig (+ 866 existing ones) and 734 new Cols (+ 4288 existing ones); 4 VADM (+14), 14 RADM (+62) and 324 Cmde & Capts (+474); Air Mshls 6 (+14), AVM 21 (+52), Air Cmde 62 (+155) and 415 Gp Capts (+635). In all there will be 8789 officers of the rank of Col and above vis-à-vis 45000 officers’ cadre strength. Soon, will there be adequate numbers for the PBs to consider, say in 2 years when the last of the large courses retire? Promotion Policy states that the ratio of those considered vis-à-vis the vacancies has to be 3:1. So what happens when there will be more vacancies than eligible officers– another committee by another name?

It is going to be a glut of vacancies in the IAF because many squadrons have already been “number-plated” and more than 450 MiG-21 will be mothballed by 2010. The replacements will nowhere match these phase outs. So will the IAF be again in the 1969 situation with a difference – too many senior officers to preside over fewer junior officers who will have lesser number of aircraft to fly? Perhaps an otherwise obdurate bureaucracy must have been gently prodded into accepting the arguments and agreeing to the recommendations of the Armed Forces because there was a concrete precedent – the IAS and their creation of posts to accommodate as many as possible in every IAS batch at levels of Jt Secy and above.

Perhaps the Govt approval is linked to the fracas over pay anomalies, perhaps it isn’t. Perhaps the timing is good enough reason for speculation. Perhaps my pet bogey, that invidious CoS, precipitated the approval as a “decoy.” It obviously does not matter to the IAS whether they have 10 or more Secretaries in a Ministry. Most often, though interconnected, they operate in compartments. Look at the Finance Ministry (5) or the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (3 +). Interesting isn’t it that there isn’t a Def Secy each for Army, Navy or Air Force? But the IAS also has a tacit command and control structure. Else, why is it that the IAS does not have two District Collectors? Why don’t they have two Chief Secretaries in the State? But the IAS did not object to many Directors General of Police (DsGP) - one who is the head of the police forces in a State and other DsGP (full-fledged) who preside over sundry portfolios like Jails, Vigilance, HQ, any of whom might be appointed chief of police at any time!

My unsolicited solution: - 1. Assimilate officers who are promoted into the system in a Career Officers’ cadre. They will be considered for promotion. 2. Select officers who are not promoted due to lack of vacancies but who have scored high in merit (7 or more in the ARs) to be placed in Professional Officers cadre. They will continue to be paid increments in salaries but will not be considered by PBs and will retire at the age of 55 years. 3. Severance for those whose report status (6 or below) entails their never being promoted in the 3 chances the NPP propounds. Severance must be started with PB-III onwards. It will leave enough officers to man the posts and depleted cockpit vacancies. Perhaps, as a “wise after retirement” air marshal, I can only caution the Armed Forces to show as much prudence in implementing the AVSC II as they did in not implementing the flawed recommendations of the CoS. Jai Hind.

P.S. Now, my unsolicited solution is ASS (for Assimilation, Selection, Severance) for two reasons — since acronyms are the order of the day and also pre-emptively agreeing with what many serving officers will call me after reading this post.

(Air Marshal Savur retired in 2006 as AOC-in-C, Southern Air Command. A decorated transport pilot, Air Marshal Savur has flown several VIPs, including former PMs Indira Gandhi and Rajiv Gandhi. He now lives and works near Bangalore.)
rgk said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 18:21

First of all I would like to express my gratitude and thanks for the selfless service all of you are rendering to armed forces. Now I would like to place my appreciation on the ongoing and ever complicating anomalies and controversies wherein defence forces are really made to believe inferior. Are these ever increasing anomalies every day are due to genuine perception, ignorance or malicious intentions ( on the part of bureaucrats ). I would like to jot down few reasons for these ever growing anomalies, every time armed forces take their case to MoD. I may not be right but these are my perceptions. Every time MoD is
approached to point out the anomalies introduced in the recently issued instructions, some more are slapped in the next one. The message is simple and clear, stop messing with us, otherwise you will be slapped every time you come
crying. Remember what Shekar Gupta had said, donot entangle with bureaucracy, you will not know which side the north is. By the time armed forces get their bearings back, the number of anomalies will be so high ( assume 100 , 3 relevant + 97 irrelevant ), that our ministers will have another oppotunity to order one more committee to establish their relevance and delay the proceedings further. Mind you, during all this period, it is only armed forces which is affected and no one else ( every one else have got their due/overdue ) . So beureaucrats can take their own sweet time to prolong the issue and frustrate the forces without any repercussions of agitation ( armed forces are gagged anyway ). Finally, when the negotiatons
starts ( anyone’s guess when will that be ), 90 anomalies out of 100 ( arbitrary numbers for illistration purposes only ) will be resolved in a reasonable span of time. The spectacular achievement by any standards because 97 out of 100 anomalies were irrelevant in the first place. Most of them were introduced only to frustrate the armed forces and steal an opportunity during the negotiation stage to demonstrate the people at large that how accomodative government of the
day in general ( score brownie points from the masters i.e. minesters ) and the
beureaucracy in particular is . This is where all these irrelevant anomalies will
come in handy ( now understand why they are being introduced even if they are laughable ). Bereaucrats are cunning and not stupid, as a simple soldier may be inclined to think ( channelising the soldier into a killing ground ) after looking at these anomalies. Mind you, there are still few more irrelevant anomalies left to be resolved to play around along with the real one. Bereaucrats will accept them one by one, along with the odd genuine one such as PBOR’s pension issue and tell the world that 98% of the anomalies are resolved and armed forces are now happy. The armed forces in any case has no voice to refute the claims. Remember, RM’s statement in Lok Shaba that no officer is putting up the papers because of distatisfaction with the 6th pay commission.

Thanks for your patience.
ranawat said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 18:54

@crazy, for a bird brained pseudo expert on defence affairs like you , I think you could not have chosen a more appropriate name!! good luck to you and your MNS wife!!!
rgk said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 19:02

@satyasaach on Novemger 5 20:27

COMMAND AND DEMAND: AN OPEN LETTER FROM A CIVILIAN by T.R.RAMASWAMI

Posted excellent article, thanks,
crazy said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 19:41

@ranawat. You have been instigating too much and calling names. You should be responsible for hurting ur fellow Offrs, if I start using same language. I challenge, if you know any facts, come on. Other than your self boating claims for izzat and not money issues. It is basically money. You use to wage your tail to british masters because they use to pay and same time work against your countrymen just for money. Had one and every Indian refused to be part of forces under British rule, they could not have ruled. They have moderated to modern day requirements but you still retain those slavery laiden Army, Navy & AF acts.
You started to demean name of MNS officer by refering them as my wife, which is derogatory and I hope you don’t cry from roof top when some one here link your wife to s..h…k culture. You better know what I mean. I can’t take anything more. You may keep barking !!!!
Force1 said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 19:44

Dear Mr Crazy, Happy to see your response.At least for the first time it seems we are dealing with an expert as can be seen from your enlightened comments which I produce, ……”that MNS (military nursing service officers’) trying to seek parity with the doctors. All the AMC Yamrajs in Army also think on same lines. Duno from where they get such type of ill rotten ideas that command & control will be hampered and patient care in long run. They know only three lines of english command & control, morale of men, scurity and Izzat. There are covers for for corruption and every greed. Basically you know balls. If you do not know the facts, do not present shit. MSP for MNS is Rs 4200, whereas for AMC and other officers it is Rs 6000. AMC Officer’ basic is 10% above the other officers as well MNS officer, this is to cater far their entry at later age and compensation for 5 1/2
yrs MBBS training. Apart from this they get specialised pay and Non Practice Allowance @ 25% for odd hours duty & non practicing. AMC gets faster promotions as per AVS committee and now any tom, dick & harry has become Lt. Cols after that. MNS duties are much harder round the clock with night duty. There is no NPA or night duty allowance for them. Any fool will know that there is no parity but a wide disparity between MNS & AMC officers. Not many know that these very MNS officers are being fixed deliberately to show that there is command and control problem after 6th Pay Commission. AMC Offrs do basic duty from 9AM to 2PM and occassionally emergencies. Whereas MNS do night duty and round the clock duty i.e. more than 50 hrs a week. ‘ ………….. It IS NICE TO KNOW THAT SOMEONE WHO HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MNS IS SO CONCERNED ABOUT THEIR AFFAIRS. MAYBE SOMEBODY IS LISTENING AFTER ALL.
Regarding the parchment- Pl show me the proof and I shall support your ilk throughout my career ( more than what I already do),which by the way maynot be long and please explain as to why they are not superior officers.And believe me, you may not have had the misfortune of being looked after our nightangles clad in OG, but the entire cry was only from anguished patients.Dear friend incomplete knowledge is a very dangerous thing(You are right about the uniform part but silent about the equation with civil counterparts in this and associated judgements).The yamrajs are more than willing to hand over the Baton.will wait for you pearls of wisdom dear Mr Crazy. Regards
rgk said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 19:47

@ Crazy on Wednesday, November 5, 2008, 23:44

Why the action hasnot been initiated against the two chiefs?

You mean, the Chief’s deputy should have initiated action against their superiors. Ideally, this query should have been reffered to the Government of India. In my opinion, as so much has been published and discussed about the discipline issue, all the three Chiefs by now should have been booted out. Even by the Government of any other banana republic would have done that. Then, why Government of India is not initiating any action? This is really a dangerous trend. We must agitate against the Government of India. Why not burn few buses, close some shops, even kill few and injure some innocent kids, women and old people. WARNING: donot harm healthy YOUNG MEN, it can be injurious. Should we announce our noble plan in all national dailies?
rgk said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 19:52

navybala said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 5:57

I had heard of bar bala, I didnot know that even Navy has balas. Thats nice, very nice.
rgk said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 20:12

@ crazy said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 15:25

Mark my word, Lt Col Purohit will not be found guilty even if he has planted a bomb and not only imparted a training in preparation of a bomb. That is how corrupt and irresponsible our governing machinary ( nexus between politician, bereaucrat and police ) is. Ask this question sheepishly to the Government of the day at that time, Why Lt Col Purohit is not punished?
rgk said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 20:28

@ ALL

Good entertainment;

Its a story of a monkey and two fighthing cats.

Politicians and bereaucrats must be laughing at all of you. Fight and fight hard among yourself, remain diverted, otherwise you will investigate their wrong doings. Not that it matters much, but, it creates some ripples in general public. Then some time will have to be devoted in smoothening out these minor issues. You will very well appreciate, how difficult it is for them to take out some time from their so busy schedule for these stupid, illeterate, starving poor masses.
king fisher said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 21:47

this is indeed a wonderful blog site…….quite interesting
menon said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 22:20

@ binu

You have written a lengthy piece of unsubstantiated jottings. On whose behest?
Have you done it to help your organisation or have you written it to please your masters? The very same masters who feel that you are incompetent morons who are unworthy of commanding the very organisation that you belong to. You have been classified as second rate officers who can only work as the labour class upto field level (DIG). Your BOSS must be an outsider. Maybe you write at his behest. Expecting a good CR this time? Instead of pulling others down stand up for yourself, Man. I hope you are one.
menon said on Thursday, November 6, 2008, 22:24

In accordance with the recommendations of the IV Pay commission, officers of the Army, Navy, &Air Force were granted Rank pay in addition to the basic pay in the integrated pay scale of Rs 2300-100-3900-150-4200-EB-150-5100. CDA(O) while fixing the pay in the integrated scale created a ‘faux paus’ by deducting ‘rank pay’ from the total emoluments and then doing the pay fixation resulting in huge financial loss to the officers with cumulative effect on pay, DA, Pension, gratuity, commutation etc.

In the case of Maj AK Dhanapalan Vs Union of India in OP 2448/96, The Hon’ble High Court of Kerela allowed the plea of the officer and held that the deduction of the rank pay was not correct and directed to re fix the basic pay of the officer from 1.1.1986. Appeal filed by the Union of India before the larger bench of the High Court & SLP in the Hon’ble Supreme Court against the judgment was dismissed. Although Govt sanction to pay arrears to Maj AK Dhanapalan were issued, the benefit was not extended to similarly placed officers of the three Services. This is injustice to the affected officers.

Since pay fixation of the IV pay commission was wrong, the consequential pay fixation of V pay commission is also wrong, so also pension, commutation, leave encashment, gratuity, etc

Latest on the case as of 3 Nov 2008: 4 CPC rank pay anomaly case, came up for hearing in Supreme Court on 03 Nov 2008. UPON hearing the counsel for the parties the Court made the following Order:-

” Learned counsel for the parties submit that the matter which are ready for hearing may be taken up for hearing ……………. Two weeks time is granted for filing rejoinder. Put up for final disposal thereafter.”
crazy said on Friday, November 7, 2008, 0:05

Thanks all. @ Force1, rkg for your enlightening comments. My dear Force1, please don’t shout i.e. don’t write in all caps. It is called shouting in internet language. For rkg there is nothing remind, because he was the first gentleman to bring the names of HuJi, L&T etc to threaten. I think it is better intrest of all, not to bring in Purohit episode here. First of all it is not yet proved, secondly your ongoing tussle with CPOs on the issue of pay commission may have initiated action in conjunction with IAS babus and finally Govt was needing such an issue for the election against BJP and to counter Samajwadi Party. Nothing will come out of this. Same no truth comes out of your GCM.

@ All There is nothing personal against any particular organisation. The only way of pjojecting the issue is not correct. Simply can not keep blaming everything on Babus. If your demands are genuine, why can’t Govt solve it in 5 minutes. The more the time Govt takes that means Govt can not trust arguments in favour or against and it has to evaluate every thing fresh. Govt is in diffiucult position so as to it can’t take decision favouring either of the side. They will have find some mediating postion. That is probably creating a sub catagory within PB-4 or another Pay Band PB-3A. You ask for yourself to be upgraded but please don’t ask others to be downgraded. That’s where you have got a bad name in public domain. It is Govt duty to decide parity vis a vis precedence. Politician want this to happen that you fight among.

@Force1 I thought not to go beyond this as dear ranawat was literally abusing me. Patient raised hue and cry regarding their OG, which only AMC Offrs or VK Singh heard???. No body else could hear that??? If it was only patients, then why you wanted to chage their stars from gold to silver even in the new uniform. Why you want to silently club their form G & warrant with PBOR and sent it to FYS calcutta. Supreme court only reitrated Army Chief’s prerogative to decide on dress and nothing else. Army could have lost the case very easily, had they not resorted to unfair means, silently diverting delhi high cout orders which was required to include their head in committe to look after. Authorities did’nt even take consent of Sikdar, then head and implemented their own recomendations by force only on verbal orders before the hearing in court and presented in court that everything has been accepted. It was ego issue of VK Singh, then commanding INHS Ashwani, who later on became head of AFMS and started diverting MH staffs from Mathura, Agra and other nearby ares to his home ground for free medical camps for poor before retirement serching for a political seat. But God has something else for him. He is dying everyday. So Mr Force1 this not a platform. You not even know how much owner of this site/blog is earning due to these intense discussions.

@Force1 & ranawat Please read para 2.3.20 & 2.3.21. All your doubts wrt parchment and everything else will be cleared. sub para 21 also says “the scheme of time bound promotions up to the level of Lt Col, already available to service officers, should be extended to MNS officers as well” I don’t have stamina beyond this to make you aware of the facts nor I want this site to earn while we indulge in painting each other black. Extremely sorry if my discussions have hurt some of my fellow players here. I log Off permanantly. !!!Regards!!!
serving soldier said on Friday, November 7, 2008, 9:16

@crazy this country and peoples like you are not getting the basic point off course because of the craziness

Now the army has become like a mouse trap for young boys of india just tell me how many of you are aware that an army officers will reach to pay band 4 in 21-24 years of service whereas any other class one officer will reach to pay band4 in 12-15 years of service none of the young boys who joins army are aware of this fact why the govt does not advertise this also alongwith the UPSC advt because the govt does not have the guts because once this fact is known by every body the boys who will come may have the JOSH to fight and die but not the HOSH to to fight and win. if this whole country is so hell bent upon keeping the army officers second grade let it be so but the facts must be advertised so that every body is aware before joining.
D Ashitanand said on Friday, November 7, 2008, 9:44

Address of Lt Gen(Retd)SK Sinha
Former Vice Chief and Governor of Assam and J&K.
At a press conference at
New Delhi, 05 Nov 2008

I feel privileged to be invited to address this conference on two important issues, with which I have a very long association. These are emoluments of Army officers and the violence in Assam.
Emoluments of Army Officers
In his address to West Point, President Eisenhower said, “When diplomats fail to maintain peace the soldier is called out to restore peace. When the civil administration fails to maintain order the soldier is called out to restore order. As the Nation’s final safeguard, the Army cannot afford a failure in either circumstance. Failure of the Army can lead to national catastrophe, endangering the survival of the Nation.” I would urge our decision-makers to ponder over this statement of Eisenhower.
As one who served in the Indian Army both before and after Independence, I would like to apprise you how the emoluments and status of Army officers have been persistently lowered since Independence. Before Independence, the Army got emoluments at par with the ICS and at some points higher than the latter. After Independence the Government brought down the salary of Army officers to the level of IPS officers, with a slight edge for the former. This resulted in our salaries getting considerably slashed. At the time of Independence, I was drawing a salary of Rs 1300 a month which overnight got reduced to Rs 770. Never before or after, have salaries of serving personnel been reduced so arbitrarily. The old salaries of our contemporaries in the ICS and IP were duly protected. No one from the Army went to court or launched any agitation. We accepted this blatant injustice with a stiff upper lip and enthusiastically went to war in Kashmir in which many of my colleagues got martyred. That was in 1947. We must accept that India of today is very different.
The pay equation between Army and Police officers was maintained till the Fourth Pay Commission, when this started being altered to the disadvantage of Army officers. I compliment the three Service Chiefs for doing their bounden duty in taking up the case of the emoluments of Lt Cols and Lt Gens at the highest level. I am surprised that some journalists, ignorant of facts have been critical of the Army and the Chiefs on this score.
I do not wish to bother you with details. I understand that to scuttle the case of Lt Cols, a red herring of comparing them with Deputy Commandants of Para Military Forces, has been raised. The latter till recently were Class 2 officers and even today are not at par with IPS officers. Moreover, the role and responsibility of the Army is different from that of the Para Military. As for Lt Gens, they got higher emoluments and held higher status than the Chief of Police of a State. That equation is also now sought to be altered to the disadvantage of the Army.
In 1973 Manekshaw was appointed Field Marshal. As Adjutant General I took up the case of the salary of Field Marshal with the Government. It took the Babus 33 years to take a decision and finally Manekshaw got his arrears of Rs 1.2 crores in 2007. The Defence Secretary handed over a cheque for that amount to him. Soon after, I met Manekshaw in the hospital, when he was on a ventilator. I congratulated him. He smiled and in his imitable way said that a Babu had given him a cheque but he was not sure if that cheque would be honoured.
Not only in terms of emoluments but also protocol, the position of Army officers has been persistently lowered after Independence. This applies to the Army Chief downwards and often this has been done afterr the Army has fought a war successfully. The protocol status of a Field Marshal has not yet been fixed in the Table of Precedence because Babudom wants to preserve the higher status of the Bara Babu, the Cabinet Secretary. When our first Field Marshal passed away recently, only a Minister of State attended the funeral. When the first British Field Marshal, the Duke of Wellington, passed away, Heads of States , Ambassadors, Prime Minister and Ministers attended his funeral. Such a cavalier approach of our rulers to the Army, aptly described by Eisenhower as the Nattion’s ultimate weapon, is not in our national interest.
Assam
The shocking serial bomb blasts in Assam, the other day, in which over 81 innocent people got killed is a sad reflection on the functioning of the Government which has reduced India to a very soft State. Terrorists have been attacking city after city and our rulers issue only inane statements. In the case of Assam, the Nation is being made to suffer self-inflicted wounds. Way back in the Sixties, forty years ago the then Governor of Assam, B K Nehru, and his Chief Minister B P Chaliha wanted to take measures against the influx of illegal migrants and took up the matter with the Centre. They were told to stop the nonsense. B K Nehru was from the dynasty, a cousin of Indira Gandhi. In his autobiography, Nice Guys Finish Second, he wrote that Chaliha belonged to an earlier generation of Congressmen that had a different set of values. They considered national interest above party interests which was now not so with the present generation of Congressmen. This was a clear indictment of vote bank politics. Thirty years later, as Governor of Assam, I also took up this issue. I submitted a 42 page report to the President of India. I made 15 specific recommendations to check the danger posed by the unabated influx of illegal migrants from Assam not only to the demography of Assam but also to the Nation’s security. These recommendations included the repeal of IMDT Act, border fencing, introducing photo identity cards at least in the border districts and updating national register of citizens. My recommendations were ignored. Congress legislators in Assam appealed to the President calling for my recall. Ultimately, the IMDT Act was struck down by the Supreme Court quoting extensively from my report but the Government brought it back through the backdoor, by amending the Foreigner’s Act. The fencing of the 260 kilometer land border in Assam supposed to have started in 1985, is not yet fully complete. While I was Governor of J & K, the Army completed a much more sophisticated fencing of 750 kilometers of the border, in far more difficult terrain. As for photo identity cards and national registere of citizens, no action whatsoever has been taken.
There has been total lack of political will to take any action to stop the demographic aggression in Assam due to vote bank considerations. On 10 April 1992, Hiteshwar Saikia the then Chief Minister of Assam stated in the State Assembly that there were 3 million illegal immigrants in Assam. Two days later he was pressurized to say to the Press that there were no illegal immigrants in Assam. On 6 May 1997 the then Union Home Minister, Indrajit Gupta, told the Parliament that there were 1 crore illegal Bangladeshi immigrants in India. On 15 July 2004 K P Jaiswal the Minister of State for Home told the Parliament that there were 1.2 crore illegal immigrants in the country. The following day Prime Minister Manmohan Singh was in Guwahati. Obviously under the influence of local Congressmen, he stated that the figures mentioned by his junior Minister in the Parliament were not authentic. A week later Jaiswal told the Parliament that he had quoted figures on the basis of hearsay.
The root cause of militancy and Jehadi violence in Assam has been illegal migration from Bangladesh. For the sake of votes, the ruling party has not only been turning a Nelson’s eye to the problem but has been encouraging it.
The influx of illegal migrants from Bangladesh into Assam continues unabated. The demographic contour of all the border districts, particularly in Lower Assam has changed radically. In many of these districts Bangladeshis are now in a majority. The district of Dhubri which abuts the sensitive Siliguri corridor, called the Chicken Neck,has a 70% Bangladeshi Muslim population. The consequence of this for the entire land mass of the North East can be most serious. It vitally affects not only the people of Assam but the entire Nation. Apart from the Government required totake stringent measures against Jehadi terrorism all the country, it must take prompt concrete measures on a war footing, to counter the unabated influx of illegal migrants from Bangladesh into Assam.

Lt Gen SK Sinha (Retd)
D Ashitanand said on Friday, November 7, 2008, 10:12

The fact is that the top IAS functionaries squander all their energy and leverage with the political executive for turf protection. That the army is the last bastion doesn’t mean it is the only bastion of the country. But unfortunately the All India Services(IAS & IPS)have abdicated as if the Army is the ‘First Bastion’.
D Ashitanand said on Friday, November 7, 2008, 10:33

Even this pay fracas was the result of ‘lets garner for ourselves, the army can always look after itself’. Little realising that the remaining vestiges of trust between the forces and bureaucracy stand completely shattered.What an utterly irresponsible thing to do!
Lali said on Friday, November 7, 2008, 11:29

My Dear All Civilian Brothers and CPOs,

Who is posted where and is doing has no meaning whatso ever under the new dispensation.

All Class A services pay progression has been linked IAS pay progression even if one is employed to do the Job of a peon.

ACP shemes also does not stipulate change in appoitments but mainly change in Pay.

Majority of the SAG perform duties of Directors and many Dy Secy are getting pays of Directors.

Who does what and holds what appoiontment is the Organisations bandobast and internal affair.

Rules for senoir and juniors are based on Pay bands and within pay band on more emoluments.
Now Lt col is Jt Dirctor or Director is the internal arrangement of the Army.

Lt Col is promoted in sixteen years or ten years is dependent on cadre structure. Poeple from other cadre are wrong in questioning that. Why are they not questioning the IAS and IPS then.??

Lt Col was always equivallant to director in Pay and Status and shall remain so. You all look into your cadres and improve your conditions rather than throwing stones at others.

you all indulging into mud-slinging just for nothing. Perticularly the CPO officers who till yesterday were class II officers and now want to take over from the IPS. They have exeggerated demands and unfounded hopes.

CPO brothers need to look attheir organisation and functions rather than take over frim IPS my mounting on the sholders of the Armed Forces. They should fight for equation with IPS rather than ARMY which which they have no equaltions.
rgk said on Friday, November 7, 2008, 11:47

@ Crazy

What are you doing on this blog. Please attain some good english coaching classes before commenting again on this blog. Are yaar, others must atleast understand in what language you write. I think the previous one was in roman if I am not wrong.
rgk said on Friday, November 7, 2008, 11:58

@ Crazy
That’s what I was indicating at. You even cannot spell others name corrrectly( You donot have one because you are not a man enough, I suppose ), spell rkg to rgk. I tell you, what a louse you are?
PRABHAKAR said on Friday, November 7, 2008, 12:05

Reverting the IAS Directors to PB3 with Grade pay of 7600 along the Lt Col will actually solve everything and save the govt a lot of money too!
The Dirctors who were in the pre-revised scale starting at 14300 got undue benefit of almost 25000/- pm after the implementation of 6th CPC. What great job suddenly they started doing that they are given a jump of 25000/- per month. It is this issue that created all heart burning and bickerings and pitted the armed forces against civilians et all. This issue is the root cause of all problems. GOI should seriously and sincerely address this issue;moderate the salary of those who were in the pre-revised scale of 14300- which may pay the way for solution to all the pending problems.
V.SUNDARESAN said on Friday, November 7, 2008, 13:40

Indeed, the 6CPC has created lots and lots of misunderstandings, heartburns,mistrusts,disbelief,amongs all sections of govt.employees. The worst sufferers are the personnel of armed forces. Just because the babus want to maintain their superiority, they downgraded the army in all respects.The army is in the receiving end always.Right from the case of Maj.Dhana[palan, all officers are denied their dues from 1996 onwards. At this rate nobody will join the services.(may be that is what the babus want ultimately).In fact i myself feels guilt of my son joining the services.
Force1 said on Friday, November 7, 2008, 13:45

Dear Ms Crazy, I quote from your hallucinogenic rants “You started to demean name of MNS officer by referring them as my wife, which is derogatory and I hope you don’t cry from roof top when some one here link your wife to s..h…k culture. You better know what I mean”.the only time you can passoff falsehoods as truth is when you tell lies with panache(I hope you understand the term) or do not suffer from internal contradictions.You seem to be so well informed of the internal affairs of the Army that it is surprising you do not know who NAs/ORAs are……”If it was only patients, then why you wanted to chage their stars from gold to silver even in the new uniform. Why you want to silently club their form G & warrant with PBOR and sent it to FYS calcutta. Supreme court only reitrated Army Chief’s prerogative to decide on dress and nothing else. Army could have lost the case very easily, had they not resorted to unfair means, silently diverting delhi high cout orders which was required to include their head in committe to look after. Authorities did’nt even take consent of Sikdar, then head and implemented their own recomendations by force only on verbal orders before the hearing in court and presented in court that everything has been accepted. It was ego issue of VK Singh, then commanding INHS Ashwani, who later on became head of AFMS and started diverting MH staffs from Mathura, Agra and other nearby ares to his home ground for free medical camps for poor before retirement serching for a political seat. But God has something else for him. He is dying everyday. So Mr Force1 this not a platform. You not even know how much owner of this site/blog is earning due to these intense discussions…………

@Force1 & ranawat Please read para 2.3.20 & 2.3.21. All your doubts wrt parchment and everything else will be cleared. sub para 21 also says “the scheme of time bound promotions up to the level of Lt Col, already available to service officers, should be extended to MNS officers as well”………..well,only the 6th pay commission has tried to raise your levels(Maybe because most of them are not going to suffer at your hands!!!!.I hope you understand and do not try to take your anger out on the poor victims.In spite of characters like you,the majority of the MNS is doing an excellent service ………..but that still does constitute a reason for equating them with the other Officers in Rank and privileges.Is having a wife from the MNS demeaning?????? I strongly disagree. Regards
Nambiyur sm esan said on Friday, November 7, 2008, 17:05

Debate keeps on going as to who is superior - the Armed Force Officers or the Civilian IAS, IPS Officers ? A soldier in the Military has to always keep physically and mentally fit whether there is war or peace, be prepared every moment to fight sacrificing his personal interest to uphold the sovereignty of the Nation. What do they expect in return is nothing more but only status quo or what was already existing not to be degraded, deviated or denied from what was already there upto the last pay commission. My fellow citizens please uphold the might of the Military and the morale of the Jawans
binu said on Friday, November 7, 2008, 17:31

Dear lali,first time i feel sorry for lack of knowledge you Force people are having and restore to making comments that officers of CPOs are class 2 not class 1.i pity on you.you should know that in blog it is always healthy discussion sharing the experience,facts,knowledge,clearing misrepresentations,building brand equity of the perceived organisations you may be advocating ec.That’s the only reason when Mr.Dev got personnal with me i didn’t respond as it creates a bad feeling among ourselves.it was a cautious decision not to bring the purohit episode in this issue because it will show the Armed forces in poor picture.If armed forces persons are ultimate then Barrack Obama would have never won election defeating a war hero like Mccain with such geat margin.we should understand that due to the media influx and knowledge sharing nobody an sell the story at the cost of others.If i will restore in using the same language as used by DEV and Menon then it reflects in poor on myself.My every reply will have good contents supported by facts to fall upon and i promise that every false retrode will be countered .Grow up Menon ,who cares for ACR where your deeds speaks.regards
menon said on Friday, November 7, 2008, 20:08

@ binu
feeling guilty? Grow up and think before you hit those computer keys. It is not the Army thats thinks you are second rate but your Central Service Masters who feel that you are not even fit to rise to top of your cadre. Fight that if you can and have the guts. Don’t peep into others gardens.
menon said on Friday, November 7, 2008, 21:20

Why don’t we carry out an enquiry into the functioning of the bureaucracy. Get the Armed forces to do it. If the Armed forces are fit enough to be called in when the civil adminiatration fails why not call them in for assistance when the civil administration betrays.
A recent study says that every person Below Poverty level pays Rs 429 for graft to get basic neccessities in this country. Why isn’t this caculated as per capita income of the boor-0-crazy and deduct it from their basic pay?
The Supreme court has rightly commented “Only GOD can save this country”. Thank God the Mahatma is not alive to see his sacrifice going down the drain.
rgk said on Saturday, November 8, 2008, 0:34

@ menon

I think Supreme Court erred a little in a sense, in the present situation even GOD may not be able to save this country.
upgrade pb4 said on Saturday, November 8, 2008, 7:34

Reproducing an article posted in this forum by Satyasaach . “A very good article by Maj Navdeep

Friday, November 7, 2008
Who propagates these myths ??
-

(First an unrelated newsflash :- The Hon’ble Supreme Court has upheld the orders of the Delhi High Court which had held that Low Medical Category personnel cannot be discharged across the board as a policy unless there is a specific endorsement of being unfit for military duty by a duly constituted Invaliding Medical Board. It may be recalled that thousands of LMC personnel were discharged last year after being declared surplus. All personnel may have to be reinstated in light of the latest development)

Now with the blog post. An oft repeated rejoinder against upgradation of Lt Colonels into Pay Band-4 is that in the good old days, Lt Colonels used to command units but now the said function is being performed by full Colonels and hence it is Colonels who deserve the erstwhile pay of Lt Colonels and Lt Colonels have been rightly placed in Pay Band-3. It is also rubbed in that officers in certain arms are attaining the rank of full Colonel in 15 years.

My first objection to this argument is that contrary to popular perception, most units are not being commanded by full Colonels but by substantive Lt Colonels who are actually acting Colonels. Officers are not promoted to the rank of Colonel in 15 years - they attain the substantive rank and pay of Colonel in 20 years which is the minimum statutorily prescribed length of service under the rules. Secondly, less than 30% officers make it to Colonel and keeping that in view, as on date the defence services may be the lowest in the ladder in the arena of officers in Pay Band-4. Thirdly, why isn’t the same argument used against other services ?. An Inspector General of Police (IGP) in the Senior Administrative Grade used to be the senior most officer in the IPS and in charge of the entire state. Today the same function is being performed by a DGP who is three grades higher than an IG, but do we hear anywhere that a DGP should be granted the scale of an IG whereas the scale of an IG should be drastically downgraded because the erstwhile functions of an IG are being performed by a DGP ?. The 6th CPC states that the military’s closest counterpart for pay comparison purposes is the IPS, but did you know that out of the total cadre strength of the IPS, more than 90% are today in Pay Band-4 ?, What about the defence services you may ask, well the percentage stands below 15% as on date.

It would be a very small gesture in my humble opinion if the anomalies as projected by the services are rectified. While the equality between different services and pay scales has been harped on by the 6th CPC, career progression in the defence services leaves much to be desired. If the present situation is allowed to continue, the lag in promotions would remain as follows :

(Note : The length of service is being reflected by including the training period assuming the IMA standard of 1.5 years)

Lt is 1.5 years behind his/her civilian counterpart from the IAS as well as the IPS

Major is 3.5 years behind his/her civilian counterpart from the IAS as well as the IPS

Lt Colonel is 5.5 years behind his/her civilian counterpart from the IAS as well as the IPS

Colonel is 8.5 years behind his/her civilian counterpart from the IAS as well as the IPS

Brig is 15.5 years behind his/her counterpart from the IPS. There is no corresponding scale in the IAS

Maj Gen is 18.5 years behind his/her counterpart from the IAS and 16.5 years behind his/her counterpart from the IPS

Moreover, while progression to Maj Gen equivalent grades is available to 100% officers on the civil side, the story is not the same with the military.

Knowing certain commentators who would definitely question this data, the following are the IAS and IPS rules after the 6th CPC which may first be perused before shooting those keys on your keyboards.

IAS Pay Rules, 2008

IPS Pay Rules, 2008

-
Posted by Navdeep / Maj Navdeep Singh at 9:04 PM 10 comments
Labels: Pay Commission :http://www.indianmilitarybenefits.blogspot.com/
Bajpayee said on Saturday, November 8, 2008, 8:23

@rgk, menon and few other armed brats are just flooding the blog with irrelevant stuff. See the definition of Army “Collection of Fools commanded by Idiots” your top story is empty. You can not even understand why Purohit issue has cropped up roght now. It is not coincedence that his rank is Lt Colonel. You better understand the designs of Babus and CPOs. Have guts to defend your serving Offrs atleast.
billa said on Saturday, November 8, 2008, 8:46

Dear likes of Sreelekha,
Pl read following carefully. This is courtsy Maj Navdeep.
An oft repeated rejoinder against upgradation of Lt Colonels into Pay Band-4 is that in the good old days, Lt Colonels used to command units but now the said function is being performed by full Colonels and hence it is Colonels who deserve the erstwhile pay of Lt Colonels and Lt Colonels have been rightly placed in Pay Band-3. It is also rubbed in that officers in certain arms are attaining the rank of full Colonel in 15 years.

My first objection to this argument is that contrary to popular perception, most units are not being commanded by full Colonels but by substantive Lt Colonels who are actually acting Colonels. Officers are not promoted to the rank of Colonel in 15 years - they attain the substantive rank and pay of Colonel in 20 years which is the minimum statutorily prescribed length of service under the rules. Secondly, less than 30% officers make it to Colonel and keeping that in view, as on date the defence services may be the lowest in the ladder in the arena of officers in Pay Band-4. Thirdly, why isn’t the same argument used against other services ?. An Inspector General of Police (IGP) in the Senior Administrative Grade used to be the senior most officer in the IPS and in charge of the entire state. Today the same function is being performed by a DGP who is three grades higher than an IG, but do we hear anywhere that a DGP should be granted the scale of an IG whereas the scale of an IG should be drastically downgraded because the erstwhile functions of an IG are being performed by a DGP ?. The 6th CPC states that the military’s closest counterpart for pay comparison purposes is the IPS, but did you know that out of the total cadre strength of the IPS, more than 90% are today in Pay Band-4 ?, What about the defence services you may ask, well the percentage stands below 15% as on date.

It would be a very small gesture in my humble opinion if the anomalies as projected by the services are rectified. While the equality between different services and pay scales has been harped on by the 6th CPC, career progression in the defence services leaves much to be desired. If the present situation is allowed to continue, the lag in promotions would remain as follows :

(Note : The length of service is being reflected by including the training period assuming the IMA standard of 1.5 years)

Lt is 1.5 years behind his/her civilian counterpart from the IAS as well as the IPS

Major is 3.5 years behind his/her civilian counterpart from the IAS as well as the IPS

Lt Colonel is 5.5 years behind his/her civilian counterpart from the IAS as well as the IPS

Colonel is 8.5 years behind his/her civilian counterpart from the IAS as well as the IPS

Brig is 15.5 years behind his/her counterpart from the IPS. There is no corresponding scale in the IAS

Maj Gen is 18.5 years behind his/her counterpart from the IAS and 16.5 years behind his/her counterpart from the IPS

Moreover, while progression to Maj Gen equivalent grades is available to 100% officers on the civil side, the story is not the same with the military.

Knowing certain commentators who would definitely question this data, the IAS and IPS rules after the 6th CPC which may first be perused before shooting those keys on your keyboards.
ravi said on Saturday, November 8, 2008, 10:36

shame..shame..shame…our beurocrats hav always done nothing but to manipulate things to suit there oun interest…they hav done it again…worst is tht our politicians also dance on the tune of beurocrats…shame shame…
binu said on Saturday, November 8, 2008, 10:43

Dear menon,
again you are restoring in the same tactics of pointing fingers on others and projecting you people saints.grow man grow.come up with facts and figures and don’t try to play politics by indulging in cheap means.the more you write the more it is getting unearthen about the substance U people are having.If we have any internal problem we will never restore to make it public as you peole are doing(remember AMC v/s MNS etc).That’s the maturity we people are restoring and i am quite clear of my views and i can find out you also realise it.Finally, ask yourself,is this kind of views you want to air with hate good for the country?It will turn our sweet dreams of a hate free working culture between all the forces into a nightmare of vicious civil strife.
regards
menon said on Saturday, November 8, 2008, 22:49

@ Binu
We are just playing your game. How would you like it if the Home Guards are up in arms to be equated with the CPOs/PMFs? OR, the State PCS is up in arms to be equated with the IAS. The Home guards have a more difficult task so why are they not put on an equal footing. After all the Home guards and the CPOs and PMFs are auxillary organisations. In civil circles the auxillaries service officers are not even found fit to command theirt own organisations. So, why bring up the matter of MNS vs AMC? The State PCS is more competant and knowledgeable on matters of the State so why are they not paid better with better status than the time pass IAS? Ask your masters? Don’t be a zombie unless you have some personal gains involved..
Rajiv said on Sunday, November 9, 2008, 9:57

the whole problem has been created by the Commitee of Secretaries by putting the IAS director and equivallants in PB-4 and deliberately leaviing out the Lt Col and equivalant of the Armed Forces…then by raising the ststus of the DG police above Lt Gens…etc

Not only this trechery, the recommendation with respect to the Armed Forces were kept hidden and not made known to the Armed Forces. What ever the Commitee of Secretary decided and was then aprroved by the Cabinet was presented to as “Fate Accomply” to the Armed forces.

That is not the way the Country is run. There are 1.7 million Armed forces men whoes pay IAS can not decide on their own without even consulting them. When the table at page 73 is not shown to the Armed Forces, how could they point out that rank Pay has ben ommitted.

This simply a trechious behaviour, uncouth action and defy / vilative of all canons of fair proceedures. If this was the method to be followed, and if Ms Sushma Nath was to misrepresent the Pay Scales of the Armed Forces keeping that misrepresentation as a secret, I dare ask what was the need of Pay Commission.

If IAS Association has acted as pay Commission, the entire proceedings stand sabotaged and no service should accept the recommendations. The pay commission proceeding should be quashed by the Honorable Supreme Court based on irregularity, lack of consultations and misrepresentaion of facts (page 73).

The horrible Babus have represented by Ms Sushma Nath not only presented a “Fate Accomply” to the “Armed Forces” but have almost forced the “Political Ladership” into Crisis Management which they think will benefits the politically and Corruptionally committed IAS Babus ultimately.
They have not only mislead the Cabinet but also have forces the Govt into a “fate accomply” situation.
aam aadmi said on Sunday, November 9, 2008, 10:52

dr v pant said from london

Even Nehru, after neglecting defence for all the years after independence had to eventually concede in 1962 that India’s military weakness ‘has been a temptation, and a little military strength may be a deterrent.’

The Indian public and press remain apathetic on defence issues. We make Kargil into a television spectacle, an opportunity for our journalists to try to show their temporary bravery by going to the frontlines for a few hours and getting the excitement of covering a war from the inside. And then when it is all over, our soldiers have been interred into their graves, we move on to new and more exciting spectacles — to our song and dance reality shows and saas-bahu sagas, forgetting that soldiers are still on guard.

This is a nation that will cry with Lata Mangeshkar [Images] when she sings Aye Mere Watan Ke Logon but will not make any effort to understand the real problems and concerns of its soldiers. It is a sign of the highly skewed priorities of the Indian media that the rising turmoil and dissatisfaction within the ranks of nations’ armed forces is being given only perfunctory coverage.

It is an issue of nation’s very survival yet the media seems busy with its devotion of superficialities. Every rave and rant of Bollywood actors is religiously covered, detailed dissection of seemingly never-ending cricket matches are conducted, exorbitant pay rises in the corporate sector make it to the headlines but the one issue that can make or break the future of this country is consigned to the margins.

We continue to pray at the altar of our false heroes while our real heroes continue to face neglect and scorn.
towy singh said on Sunday, November 9, 2008, 13:46

dear benu

you r correct.this time the army has really made the joke of the disciplin,which they claim they are.they linked all the issues with the pay commission.they say there is the shortage of the officers in the armed forces.who has refused them to take the lot what so ever comes to them.after all its the available population of the country which will be serving the nation.almighty will not be coming from the heven to serve in the army.moreover who so ever is there is well known for the scandals.some officer blacking DAL,some calling woman officer at his residence and sexually harassing her on the pretext of teaching yoga,every day news paper tells such deeds of these officers.the kargil was almost failure.thank god some brave young officers save the repo of the army by sacrificing there lives.they safe gaurd there superiors,who otherwise were sending there under command to be butchered by the enemy.no action was taken in time on the int reports.oterwise the kargil would have never been happened.regarding china war one should read the book”the himalayan blundrs” written by some senior army officer.this is the high time that the govt and the indian population should understand the importance of the CPO’s as in future no war will be faught.its all will be “low intencity conflict”
rehman said on Sunday, November 9, 2008, 17:21

The present turn of events with regard to the pay commission anomalies of the Armed forces has caused immense harm . It has demoralised the middle level officers to a great extent….I shudder to think of the heavy price the nation will have to pay for this misadventure on the part of the netas/babus. In a situation where for every thing ranging from restoring law and order to flood relief, earthquakes natural disasters to rescueing children from borewells………. the army is indispensable.., can you afford to have a demoralised army?….I am sure the ISI and the notorious paki establishment must be watching these developments with glee and waiting for an appropriate moment to strike……when are the netas going to wake up from their deep slumber?????
mountain doctor said on Sunday, November 9, 2008, 18:24

Dear All
This should interest all.

” Now, judges demand pay hike
Sunetra Choudhary, Thursday, November 06, 2008, (New Delhi)

Judges in India are pretty powerful but now they want more power and status. NDTV has learnt that the Chief Justice of India (CJI) has written to the Law Minister asking for a pay hike to keep up with bureaucrats after the Sixth Pay Commission.
It seems that the issue goes far beyond money.”
kds said on Sunday, November 9, 2008, 18:24

Dear Friends,

A well written article espousing the cause of the military by a non -Fauji , a finance expert at that. Sunder, the writer is a former banker who was with the SBI Group and DSP Merrill Lynch Ltd. This is one of the best article I have come across on the 6th CPC row on the net…..
Deserves a Standing Ovation……!!!! Read on..

We need a permanent solution to this tussle over emoluments so that the armed forces need only confront the enemies of the nation, says T.R.Ramaswami
In the continuing debate on pay scales for the armed forces, there has to be a serious and transparent effort to ensure that the country is not faced with an unnecessary civil-military confrontation. That effort will have to come from the netas, who are the real and true bosses of the armed forces and not the civil bureaucracy. A solution may lie in what follows. This country requires the best armed forces, the best police and the best civil service. In fact that is what the British ensured.. By best one means that a person chooses which service he wants as per his desires/capabilities and not based on the vast differential in prospects in the various services. How much differential is there? Take Maharashtra, one of the most parsimonious with police ranks thus still retaining some merit - the 1981 IPS batch have become 3-star generals, the 1987 are 2-star and the 1994 1-star.. In the army the corresponding years are 1972, 1975, 1979. – ie a differential of 10-15 years. While the differential is more with the IAS, the variance with the IPS is all the more glaring because both are uniformed services and the grades are “visible” on the shoulders.
First some general aspects. Only the armed forces are a real profession – ie where you rise to the top only by joining at the bottom. We have had professors of economics become Finance Secretaries or even Governors of RBI. We have any number of MBBSs, engineers, MBAs, in the police force though what their qualifications lend to their jobs is a moot point. You can join at any level in the civil service, except Cabinet Secretary. A civil servant can move from Animal Husbandry to Civil Aviation to Fertilisers to Steel to yes, unfortunately, even to Defence.. But the army never asks for Brigade Commanders or a Commandant of the Army War College or even Director General Military Intelligence, even from RAW or IB. Army officers can and have moved into organizations like IB and RAW but it is never the other way round. MBBS and Law graduates are only in the Medical or JAG Corps and do nothing beyond their narrow areas. Every Army Chief - in any army - has risen from being a commander of a platoon to company to battalion to brigade to division to corps to army. In fact the professionalism is so intense that no non-armoured corps officer ever commands an armoured formation – first and possibly only exception in world military history – General K. Sunderji. Perhaps it is this outstanding professionalism that irks the civil services.
Next, one must note the rigidity and steep pyramid of the army’s rank structure. In the civil services any post is fungible with any grade based on political expediency and the desires of the service. For example I know of one case where one department downgraded one post in another state and up-graded one in Mumbai just to enable someone continue in Mumbai after promotion! You can’t fool around like this in the armed forces. A very good Brigadier cannot be made a Major-General and continue as brigade commander. There has to be a clear vacancy for a Major General and even then there may be others better than him. Further the top five ranks in the army comprise only 10% of the officer strength. Contrast this with the civil services where entire batches become Joint Secretaries.
Even the meaning of the word “merit” is vastly different in the army and the civil services. Some years back an officer of the Maharashtra cadre claimed that he should be the Chief Secretary as he was first in the merit list. Which merit list? At the time of entry more than 35 years before! The fact is that this is how merit is decided in the IAS and IPS. Every time a batch gets promoted the inter-se merit is still retained as at the time of entry. In other words if you are first in a batch at the time of entry, then as long as you get promoted, you continue to remain first! This is like someone in the army claiming that he should become chief because he got the Sword of Honour at the IMA. Even a Param Vir Chakra does not count for promotion, assuming that you are still alive. In the armed forces, merit is a continuous process - each time a batch is promoted the merit list is redrawn according to your performance in all the previous assignments with additional weightage given not only to the last one but also to your suitability for the next one. Thus if you are a Brigade Commander and found fit to become a Major General, you may not get a division because others have been found better to head a division. That effectively puts an end to your promotion to Lt. General.
The compensation package must therefore address all the above issues. In each service, anyone must get the same total compensation by the time he reaches the ‘mode rank’ of his service. “Mode” is a statistical term – the value where the maximum number of variables fall. In the IAS normally everyone reaches Director and in the IPS it is DIG. In the army, given the aforementioned rank and grade rigidities and pyramidical structure, the mode rank cannot exceed Colonel. Thus a Colonel’s gross career earnings (not salary scales alone) must be at par with that of a Director. But remember that a Colonel retires at 54, but every babu from peon to Secretary at 60 regardless of performance. Further, it takes 16-18 years to become a Colonel whereas in that time an IAS officer reaches the next higher grade of Joint Secretary, which is considered equal to a Major General. These aspects and others - like postings in non-family stations - must be addressed while fixing the overall pay scales of Colonel and below. Thereafter a Brigadier will be made equal to a Joint Secretary, a Major-General to an Additional Secretary and a Lt. General to a Secretary. The Army Commanders deserve a new rank - Colonel General - and should be above a Secretary but below Cabinet Secretary. The equalization takes place at the level of Cabinet Secretary and Army Chief. If this is financially a problem I have another solution. Without increasing the armed forces’ scales, reduce the scales of the IAS and IPS till they too have 20% shortage. Done? Even India ’s corruption index will go down.
If the above is accepted in principle, there is a good case to review the number of posts above Colonel. Senior ranks in the armed forces have become devalued with more and more posts being created. But the same pruning exercise is necessary in the IAS and more so in the IPS, where Directors General in some states are re-writing police manuals – one is doing Volume I and another Volume II! Further the civil services have such facilities as “compulsory wait” – basically a picnic at taxpayers cost. And if you are not promoted or posted where you don’t want to go they seem able to take off on leave with much ease. In the army you will be court-martialled. Also find out how many are on study leave. The country cannot afford this.
Let not someone say that the IAS and IPS exams are tougher and hence the quality of the officers better. An exam at the age of 24 has to be tougher than one at the age of 16. The taxpaying citizen is not interested in your essay/note writing capabilities or whether you know Cleopatra’s grandfather. As a citizen I always see the army being called to hold the pants of the civil services and the police and never the other way round. That’s enough proof as to who is really more capable. Also recall the insensitive statements made by the IG Meerut in the Aarushi case and the Home Secretary after the blasts. Further, when the IAS and IPS hopefuls are sleeping, eating and studying, their school mates, who have joined the army, stand vigil on the borders to make it possible for them to do so.
Remember that the armed forces can only fight for above the table pay. They can never compete with the civil services and definitely not with the police for the under the table variety.
Finally, there is one supreme national necessity. The political class – not the bureaucracy - which represents the real civil supremacy better become more savvy on matters relating to the armed forces. Till then they are at the mercy of the civil service, who frequently play their own little war games. At ministerial level there are some very specialized departments – Finance, Railways, Security (Home), Foreign and Defence, where split second decisions are necessary. It is always possible to find netas savvy in finance, foreign relations and railways. Security has been addressed in getting a former IPS officer as NSA at the level of a MoS. Is it time that a professional is also brought into the Defence Ministry as MoS? The sooner the better. In fact this will be better than a CoDS because the armed forces will have someone not constrained by the Army Act or Article 33 of the Constitution. Of course the loudest howls will come from the babus. The netas must realize that a divide and rule policy cannot work where the country’s security is concerned. Recall 1962?
Our army, already engaged in activities not core to their functions, including rescuing babies from borewells (!), should not have to engage in civil wars over their pay scales.
The writer is a former banker who was with the SBI Group and DSP Merrill Lynch Ltd.
V.SUNDARESAN said on Sunday, November 9, 2008, 20:32

Now the month december is also going ast.There is absolutely no news from the govt or MOD about the services pay and pension issues.I think everything is tund.Nobody bothers about the personnel of the armed forces.Only lip services and mock sympathies.Who wants them? A thankless commission and equally thankless babus. Only god can save our country.
abcdefg said on Monday, November 10, 2008, 0:29

Apne aap ko fauji kehte ho… jab apne adhikaron ki raksha nahi kar sakte to humein kaise bachaoge… tum khali bakwaas kar sakte ho… jo garajte hai wo baraste nahi…jao jaake choodian pehan lo… is desh mein maangne se kuchh nahi milega… dum hai to haasil karke dikhao… warna moonh mat kholo…chup chaap baitho…

LAAL KILE YA BOAT CLUB PE IKATTHHA HO SAKTE HO??????? HAI DUM?????????
Deva said on Monday, November 10, 2008, 20:10

@kds

Really good article, but some people may not like truth coming out like this. Over a period, People started believing that “civil leadership “means leadership by “civil servants (IAS), not political masters. After some time, Defence secretary will start calling himself/ herself as “Supreme commander” of Armed forces, which is President of India.

@ abcdefg………,
If you con’t contribute something useful and intelligent, then please refrain from wasting valuable resources and others time.
Deva said on Monday, November 10, 2008, 20:47

STOP COMPARISION:
Point No. 1 : Difference
Over a period of time, gross misuse by Press and other media has distorted the definitions of Military, para-military and police forces. The correct position is :-
Defence forces are Army, Navy and Air Force only, working under min of Defence.
Para-military forces (Assam Rifles, Coast Guard, Aviation research centre etc.) are those forces which use some of the Equipment and weapons of Defence forces. Personnel (Officers/ PBOR) of Defence Forces train them and even posted to these formations. But due to their limited role and specialized nature of duties, PMF cannot be merged with Defence Forces.
Police Forces (like BSF, CRPF, ITBP etc) are part of central police organization (CPO), and they come under Min of Home affairs. They are NOT para-military forces, but are called police forces.

Point No. 2: Utility and Role
The role and nature of duties of IAS, Defence, Para-military and police forces are totally different and each has very important role to play in their area of responsibility.
IAS cannot work as Army and Army cannot work as IAS.
Police forces cannot work as IAS and IAS also can’t work in place of Police.
Police cannot work as Army and Army cannot work as Police ( though frequent utilization of Army in internal security/ counter-insurgency duties given this chance to police force to compare themselves with Army).

Point No. 3: Unity in Diversity
India is big country, so is its Govt. system and organs. There is enough scope for everyone to excel in their area of specialization. The problem comes when we start comparing IAS with Army, Police with IAS etc. Let’s be happy for others who got PB-4, and pray that others also get in PB-4, as it definitely improves status (and take home pay).
Let’s not fight for negative reasons.
abcdefg said on Monday, November 10, 2008, 22:33

@deva
“barking dogs seldom bite” ye ungrezi ki kahawat suni hai???? ye babu log tumhara aise hee kaat rahe hain aur tum log katwa rahe ho…. bahut intelligent samajhte ho khud ko….. sab dhari kee dhari rah jayegi…. dubara bolta hoon…. hai dum??? nahi hai…… isliye bhonkte raho koi nahi sunega….. ha ha ha ha ha……
abcdefg said on Monday, November 10, 2008, 22:37

@deva
vaise tu kya bolta hai…lt col ko pb-3 lekar chup baithna chahiye???
flyboy said on Monday, November 10, 2008, 22:52

Dear Kartik, I am not sure if you still read all the blogs on this site, but I felt I must let you know that in case with the grace of God if you ever suffer an internal problem, the doctors will find it extremely easy to operate on you. You are a spineless, gutless, heartless and slimy character and the best part is that your head and rear end are interchangeable. You are plane lucky that you can continue to remain a faceless, nameless and meaningless character all your life otherwise your arse would have been taken, chopped, fried and served as snacks in our messes.
HUMOUR in SERVICE said on Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 8:47

Internet revised IRLA says Int Relief but u r statement (despatched and made earlier )says MSP..Ha Ha CDAO is playing funny or is there something in the air, i.e. correcting the definition of MSP, giving it to all Fauzis and not only to those in forward areas.
Deva said on Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 18:40

CAUTION! CAUTION! FOR ALL

This fellow @abcdefg is some enemy agent and he is having fun watching all of us fighting over stupid issues, on which we have no control.
His language, choice of words and manner of writing in indicative of that. Please don’t fall prey to his instications.

@ Moderator/ System Administrator

Can you moderate his comments or delete them please.
menon said on Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 21:41

How the Crafty Babus create anomalies:
Definition of Rank Pay in Special Army Instruction (SAI) 2/S/98 :

2 (b) : “RANK PAY” means the pay admissible to an officer appropriate to the rank actually held, either in acting or substantive capacity, in addition to the pay in the revised scale. Rank Pay forms part of the basic pay.

And the definition in the recently issued SAI 2/S/08 :

3 (b) : “RANK PAY” means the Rank Pay admissible to Commissioned Officers of the three services.
This is being tampereed with when the SCPC is being contested. Why? Are our Minister so bloody dumb or are they party to the subversion of the Armed Forces. The Nation must know and ensure such anti nationals are noted voted back into power.
Adarsh said on Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 23:11

Dear Armywallas,

keep begging. your prayers will also be heard like those poor kids at traffic lights all over Delhi and elsewhere. our only HOLY COW institution is dying of hunger. I appeal my fellow contrymen to donate generously so that a corpus fund is created to feed these poorarmy officers.

Have heart. Govt has already acknowledged your service by giving MSP and other privileges which are not entitled to other orgs. If today govt succumbs to your these demands you may come up with new ones. The way things are moving in Services the day is not far off when like railway and bank employees our armed forces are seen on the roads with banners and flags.
Armed Force Officer said on Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 23:30

Dear Adarsh
1) Your Comments reflect the Upbringing which you received everywhere.
2) They reflect Total Lack of Knowledge.
3) May God Bless you with all that you require most
abcdefg said on Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 0:13

@deva…

tu kaun hai bey????? …. pehle apne baare mein bata…. uske baad doosron ke bare mein bol… teri baatein sunke to lagta hai tu koi ghoos khane wala babu hai…. hai na… jhooth mat bolna… tujhe tere ghar walon ki kasam…
Khaki said on Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 10:26

Address of Lt Gen(Retd)SK Sinha. If it is actually the exact text then i am sorry to say that gen Sinha has proved himself to be a nitwit of the highest order. He says comparing Dy Comdt with Lt Col is a red herring wheras Second-in -Commands are being compared. Secondly there is no class II officers in CPOs. It only proves that the Gen has become senile and he should abstain from opening his trap ( booby trap ?).
aam aadmi said on Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 10:32

arre yaar khaki kyon pareshaan ho rahe ho ye Gen saab log retire hone ke baad hi munh kholne ki jurrat karte hain
ANON said on Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 12:34

DEAR KHAKI,
GEN KI CHODIYE KHAKI TO RETEIREMENT KE BAAD ‘MAALIKON KE AAGE GHUMTE HAI.
Singh said on Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 13:26

FOOD FOR THOUGHT
Gentleman, there is a lot of acrimony in the spectrum these days. Allegations and counter allegations flowing thick and fast: Khaki versus the Olive Green. Does it augur well for the Nation?

The sharp reactions have been provoked by the trivial issue of pay packages. A country where thousands still die of hunger and disease every year, where malnutrition amongst children is worse than the Sub-Saharan Africa, the fourth largest Army of the World and the largest group of CPMFs or CPOs in the World, take the gauntlet to slug it out for fatter pay.

Admit it or not the Indian Army has been responsible for all this mud slinging and washing of dirty linen in the public domain. The others perhaps are no match to this skill of the Army developed over the years at the expense of professionalism, integrity and patriotism. One can only expect them to mark their personal cars with the sticker of “ARMY” because they always desire special privileges even when driving on the road. Just spare a thought: Is it not symptomatic of a deep rooted archaic mindset of only seeking special treatment? In a modern day democracy it is nothing but sickness. Today, however, the issue is different.

The Army is a powerful institution in India. Combined with the might of CPMFs/CPOs it is an insurmountable entity. Why can’t we see that there is war already going on and I am not referring to the insurgencies or the naxalite violence? Our own political and administrative infrastructure has declared a war on us of corruption, apathy, injustice regionalism and communalism.

Instead of fighting for pay, let’s fight these forces and annihilate them before they devour this Nation. And let the Chief’s take the lead. They will be revered more than they will be fighting for few more pennies. And I am not suggesting an outright coup, there may be lot other ways the Army could arm twist the politicos to act only and only in National Interest. But that is possible only when the Chief’s look beyond fat pockets.

I am forty and have lived half my life. My kids are small and have a whole life ahead. Let’s do something for them and others like them. Let them not curse their destiny that they were born to Indian parents in India to live in India.
Dr Rajeev said on Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 15:56

Has any one know the Email Id of Mr.A.K.Antony?It will be better if you directly write to him because as he is busy in sorting out Margaret Alva he will not have time to read the valuable comments.
SATYASAACH said on Thursday, November 13, 2008, 9:14

HAPPY GURU PARAB to all of you in GCONNECT.

All the best to all Fauzi bhai…let PBOR 70%pension benefits and PB4 of LtCol come through along with Redifining of MSP for all fauzis (and not restricting only to service personnel of Forward areas) and inclusion of Rank pay as part of BASIC Pay.
Brave said on Thursday, November 13, 2008, 12:19

All the chiefs are really coward !!!!Shame on them.
Brave said on Thursday, November 13, 2008, 12:21

WE should not accept pay in the new pay scales till all anomalies are removed
Big Loss said on Thursday, November 13, 2008, 12:23

All this GoM on Defence Services pay is drama. Let the chiefs act accordingly otherwise they do not have moral right to command.
andy said on Thursday, November 13, 2008, 12:28

@abcdefg,
Please mind your language. Whatever difference of opinion we people may have on parity or pay, yet everyone expressing his/her view in here is an Indian xcept u. What r u trying to get. What,s ur motive. U r a road chhap paki, doesn’t deserve to be included in the discussion. Keep urself out and goodbye.
Dan said on Thursday, November 13, 2008, 12:36

who is Major Tammy Duckworth ?

Maj Duckworth, a brave daughter of an American father and Thai mother, is a National Guard Volunteer who opted for a tour of duty in Iraq where she got hit by a rocket propelled grenade and lost both her legs and also suffered other permanent injuries. For the uninitiated, the National Guard is a part-time national service voluntary force like our Territorial Army (TA). Maj Duckworth, despite her disability is still a National Guard volunteer and has also been appointed as the Director of the Department of Veterans’ Affairs for the State of Illinois. She stands decorated with the Air Medal, Purple Heart and the Army Commendation Medal.

The State Departments of Veterans’ Affairs have been in the forefront for veterans’ rights and policies in the US. What is strikingly refreshing is the fact that the State Governments in the US are not rank conscious while appointing heads of veterans’ affairs who are directly answerable to the State Governors and who play a major role in the lives of veterans and also their families.

We, on the other hand also have a proactive set up dealing with ex-servicemen (high time we shed this term – it should be gender neutral : either ex-servicemembers or veterans) welfare but the system is so much embroiled in red-tapism, hierarchism and rank-consciousness that the ultimate benefits do not efficiently percolate down to beneficiaries. The system is also lopsided at places and undermines military dignity. To take an example, all over India, DCs / DMs / Collectors of Districts, mostly young IAS officers are appointed Presidents of Zila Sainik Boards ex-officio. Kendriya Sainik Board guidelines however provide that in each district the Vice-President of the Sainik Board should be a retired General Officer. So we ourselves from within the Kendriya Sainik Board (whose Secretary is a serving defence officer) have initiated a hierarchy wherein young bureaucrats are placed as Presidents and retired Generals are placed as Vice-Presidents.

Secretaries of Zila Sainik Boards in each district (also variably known as Distt Sainik Welfare Officers) mostly used to be retired Honorary officers or released Commissioned officers of junior ranks earlier. However with our own policy in 1999, the Kendriya Sainik Board directed that such appointments must only be made from amongst retired officers of the rank of Major, Lt Col or Col. As a policy it may seem good but the modality not realized by the powers that be was (/is) that the post of Secy Zila Sainik Board in most states is an appointment under the Junior Time Scale (JTS) equal to a pay and status of a Lieutenant and in this light was it prudent for us in the Kendriya Sainik Board to have initiated an upward revision of ranks without first asking the States to upwardly revise the pay and thereby the status ? Isn’t it self deprecating asking Majors, Lt Cols and Cols to join lower rungs of civil hierarchy ?. Most young IAS officers usually extend due respect to retired military officers but it is not normally the case with officers from other state and provincial cadres. And here I also agree with civilian officers of mixed organizations who say that Army officers are often ready to take up lower level ‘below status’ appointments in MES etc to enjoy cushy stints – this definitely leads to status erosion in the longer run, but that’s my personal opinion of course.

Coming back to the Sainik welfare hierarchy. Secretaries of Rajya Sainik Boards (also known as State Directors of Sainik Welfare) are also to be appointed from amongst retired Brigadiers according to Kendriya Sainik Board Policy. It’s another story that most of such appointments were placed in the approx pay scale of a Major of the Army. If indeed an enhanced pay package cannot be provided then a contractual honorarium shall be better than a regular pay scale since it would atleast bypass any comparison with serving civil officers. If retired Brigadiers were to be recommended for such appointments, then firstly the nomenclature of the appointment should have been upgraded to ‘Director General’ and pay scale should have been enhanced. Even the Zila (District) level officers should have been made directly answerable to such State level heads and not civil district heads as is the present practice. Vice-Presidents of Zila Sainik Boards should have been designated as Advisors and not Vice-Presidents who are placed below young civil officers designated as Presidents. The above are small changes in nomenclature which can go a long way in enhancing the dignity of retired officers. But is anyone listening and is someone ready to challenge the status quo ante ?

The ideal set-up would be to have an accomplished veteran at the head of the State organization not based on rank but based on his or her achievements, Maj Tammy Duckworth anyone …?

By the way, this is what President-elect Obama had to say on the occasion yesterday :

“On this Veterans’ Day, let us rededicate ourselves to keep a sacred trust with all who have worn the uniform of the United States of America: that America will serve you as well as you have served your country. As your next Commander-in-Chief, I promise to work every single day to keep that sacred trust with all who have served. May God bless our veterans, and may God bless the United States of America,”
Anonymous said on Thursday, November 13, 2008, 14:12

@ all,
one good piece of news.
in mumbai, voters registration for service personnel is going on on fast pace.
it is estimated that there are 50,000 votes from the three services and their families.
hearing this, shri milind deora (think he’s contesting from south mumbai) is having the jitters.
considering that the margin between main parties is at best a lakh of votes, atleast in one prominent constituency, we will have the power to decide our MP.
Given the current resentment against the present govt, any guesses who’ll win or if someone promises to raise the degradation of armed forces in the parliament, then rest be assured he’ll win hands down in south mumbai.
menon said on Thursday, November 13, 2008, 23:16

arre Kakhi, tumhare jaise paise banane ka mauka milta toh hum bhi khush ho jate - tab PB4 kya -vaise hi public ki vaat lagaa dete.
Anonymous said on Thursday, November 13, 2008, 23:30

lets all be respectful of each other
suri said on Friday, November 14, 2008, 18:56

Friday, November 14, 2008
Update on the Rank Pay showdown
At the beginning of this month, the three Chiefs met with Expenditure Secretary Sushama Nath to discuss the four core demands of the armed forces. Nath later briefed Pranab Mukherjee on this meeting.

Anyway, during the meeting between Nath and the three chiefs, the definition of Rank Pay came up. She indicated that there had been a Cabinet decision in 2000 which stated that Rank Pay did not form part of Basic Pay. In response, the Chiefs told her that if such a decision had indeed been taken, then the affected party, i.e. the services, were neither consulted nor made a party to the decision. And that even if such a decision had been taken, the Services Instructions issued by the MoD were not amended, adding that amendment of Service Instructions was a mandatory requirement, since it involved restructuring of the pay of service officers.

The contents of the GoI letter of 2000 (which Nath was referring to) with regard to Rank Pay were scrutinised during the meeting. It emerged that the contents of the letter were “entirely in consonance” with what the Chiefs were saying. The 2000 letter says “Rank Pay will be taken into account for determining their entitlements to such of those financial benefits, concessions, etc, including retirement benefits as are directly related to the basic pay or their pay scales.”

Will be reporting more about this meeting on my channel shortly. Timings will be posted ahead.
Posted by Shiv Aroor at 9:14 AM
Categories: Controversy, Government, Headlines Today, LF Exclusive, Military Pay, MoD, Personalities
grewal said on Friday, November 14, 2008, 19:23

The present Govt has has let down all the foujis, and the exfoujis…..The congress president during the election meetings in 2002 had promised implimentation of one rank one pension for exservicemen if they came to power….but like any other present day politician in this country ,she has gone back on her word. Let us all make a resolve not to cast a single vote for the present govt…whether the serving members or exservice men and their families……please spread the word around….TOGETHER WE CAN MAKE A CHANGE……
menon said on Friday, November 14, 2008, 20:45

Suri, What more do you expect from Sushma Nath? She is a bureaucrat to the core - untrustworthy. Twist and bends facts. What values can this woman teach her children?
grewal said on Saturday, November 15, 2008, 8:28

The present Govt has has let down all the foujis, and the exfoujis…..The congress president during the election meetings in 2002 had promised implimentation of one rank one pension for exservicemen if they came to power….but like any other present day politician in this country ,she has gone back on her word. Let us all make a resolve not to cast a single vote for the present govt…whether the serving members or exservice men and their families……please spread the word around….TOGETHER WE CAN MAKE A CHANGE……
SHOCKER said on Saturday, November 15, 2008, 12:00

An article of interest.

Friday, November 14, 2008
6thPC: Update on Military Service Pay (MSP)

In the early November meeting (see previous post) between Expenditure Secretary Sushama Nath and the three service chiefs, Ms Nath stated that “rank pay now forms part of the MSP”. The chiefs, backed by DG (MP&PS) Lt Gen VK Chaturvedi, Chairman PARC Rear Admiral S.A. O’Leary and ACAS Accounts Air Vice Mshl Baldev Singh argued that Military Service Pay (MSP) was meant to be “compensation for the intangible disadvantages of military life experienced by Services personnel over their entire career”. They further added that MSP was a new pay element, and was totally de-linked from the pre-revised pay structure. It was because of this that no arrears had been paid on the MSP, the chiefs indicated, and therefore for the bureaucracy to use it “as an edge or as a replacement of rank pay” was incorrect.

According to sources, Ms Nath then indicated that “all ranks are beneficiaries of MSP”. The Chiefs told her that in the case of a Lt Col, even considering MSP, his total emoluments were lower by roughly Rs 5,000 in comparison to a civil officer who was drawing les than him in the pre-revised payscale regime.

At this point, Gen Deepak Kapoor emphasised that their concerns stretched beyond the monetary benefits that were implied. He said it was primarily “a question of status and esteem”. He added that if rank pay was to be withdrawn, it should be merged back into scale where it originally belonged and nowhere else. He indicated that using MSP as compensation implied nullifying the intended benefits of the revised pay scales.

P.S. In response to one of the commenters — it’s true that pensionary benefits for PBORs have been reinstated, so it’s down to three core armed forces demands. All three continue to hang fire. Watch Headlines Today and stay tuned for updates.
Posted by Shiv Aroor at 11:04 PM
Categories: Controversy, Government, Headlines Today, LF Exclusive, Military Pay, MoD

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/11/6thpc-update-on-military-service-pay.html
It really made an interesting reading.bye all
Force1 said on Saturday, November 15, 2008, 12:00

At one time this used to happen in India!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Sack Lunches.

I put my carry-on in the luggage compartment and sat down in my assigned seat. It was going to be a long flight. ‘I’m glad I have a good book to read Perhaps I will get a short nap,’ I thought.

Just before take-off, a line of soldiers came down the aisle and filled all the vacant seats, totally surrounding me. I decided to start a conversation. ‘Where are you headed?’ I asked the soldier seated nearest to me.

‘Petawawa. We’ll be there for two weeks for special training, and then we’re being deployed to Afghanistan

After flying for about an hour, an announcement was made that sack lunches were available for five dollars. It would be several hours before we reached the east, and I quickly decided a lunch would help pass the time..

As I reached for my wallet, I overheard soldier ask his buddy if he planned to buy lunch. ‘No, that seems like a lot of money for just a sack lunch. Probably wouldn’t be worth five bucks. I’ll wait till we get to base ‘

His friend agreed.

I looked around at the other soldiers. None were buying lunch. I walked to the back of the plane and handed the flight attendant a fifty dollar bill. ‘Take a lunch to all those soldiers.’ She grabbed my arms and squeezed tightly. Her eyes wet with tears, she thanked me. ‘My son was a soldier in Iraq ; it’s almost like you are doing it for him.’

Picking up ten sacks, she headed up the aisle to where the soldiers were seated. She stopped at my seat and asked, ‘Which do you like best - beef or chicken?’

‘Chicken,’ I replied, wondering why she asked. She turned and went to the front of plane, returning a minute later with a dinner plate from first class. ‘This is your thanks.’

After we finished eating, I went again to the back of the plane, heading for the rest room. A man stopped me. ‘I saw what you did. I want to be part of it. Here, take this.’ He handed me twenty-five dollars.

Soon after I returned to my seat, I saw the Flight Captain coming down the aisle, looking at the aisle numbers as he walked, I hoped he was not looking for me, but noticed he was looking at the numbers only on my side of the plane. When he got to my row he stopped, smiled, held out his hand, an said, ‘I want to shake your hand.’

Quickly unfastening my seatbelt I stood and took the Captain’s hand. With a booming voice he said, ‘I was a soldier and I was a military pilot. Once, someone bought me a lunch. It was an act of kindness I never forgot.’ I was embarrassed when applause was heard from all of the passengers.

Later I walked to the front of the plane so I could stretch my legs. A man who was seated about six rows in front of me reached out his hand, wanting to shake mine. He left another twenty-five dollars in my palm.

When we landed I gathered my belongings and started to deplane. Waiting just inside the airplane door was a man who stopped me, put something in my shirt pocket, turned, and walked away without saying a word. Another twenty-five dollars!

Upon entering the terminal, I saw the soldiers gathering for their trip to the base. I walked over to them and handed them seventy-five dollars. ‘It will take you some time to reach the base. It will be about time for a sandwich. God Bless You.’

Ten young men left that flight feeling the love and respect of their fellow travelers. As I walked briskly to my car, I whispered a prayer for their safe return. These soldiers were giving their all for our country. I could only give them a couple of meals.

It seemed so little…

A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life,wrote a blank check made payable to ‘Canada for an amount of ‘up to and including my life.’

That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.’
JAWAN said on Saturday, November 15, 2008, 15:27

Thanks to all for their views. I would like to add a few but veryserious anomalies within the defence forces. The first one is about MSP of an Officer vs PBOR. The
Commission recommemnds that “the rate of MSP as a percentage of
the existing pay has to be maintained in case of officers (up to the
level of Brigadier/equivalent) as well as PBORs because the difficulties faced in field situations by both these categories are
similar. So, ratio of officer’s pay i.e. Rs. 8250/ and PBOR’s pay i.e. 3200 (both entry level) is 2.6. Going by this ratio, the MSP for PBORs should have been
Rs.2308 (6000/2.6. However, in case of officers, rank pay for various
grades up to Brigadier/equivalent was also payable which will no
longer be paid in the revised scheme of running pay bands along
with grade pay and MSP (in case of defence officers). The average
rank pay for grades of officers up to brigadier/equivalent works out
to Rs.1267. This amount will need to be excluded while computing
MSP for PBORs as they were not paid any rank pay. The MSP for
PBORs, therefore, should be in the vicinity of Rs. 1000. The
Commission, accordingly, recommends that all PBORs may be
paid Military Service Pay of Rs.1000 p.m.” So, the outcome of the logic given by pay commision is highly incorrect becauseof following reasons. 1. MSP of PBOR is decided as ratio of basic pay of officer and PBOR (2.6 or Rs 2308), then as officer has to forgive hid rank pay due to introduction of running pay band scheme, average of officer’s rank pay i.e. Rs. 1267 was reduced from PBOR’s MSP, and decided to give Rs.1000 only (later revised to Rs. 2000). So, pay commision took two parameters to decide single pay for PBOR (one is ratio of basic pay and second is average of officer’s rank pay). Despite of basic mathetical error in pay commision recommendations, not a single officer has raised any voice, because it is not affecting any of them. It is a problem of PBORs for whom they seems to be least worried. Secondly, it is not understood, how the rankpay of officer is related to MSP of JAWAN. Now they are shouting for their rank pay and forgettingthat their own people (JAWANs) have already paid the price fortheir rankpay. Please take a note and don’t make a mockery of defence services. If jawans started opening their mouth, you won’t be able to show your face……………………………(contd.)
Khaki said on Saturday, November 15, 2008, 17:45

My dear OGs. Please explain me the logic . You want your old basic and rank pay to be included for calculating the new pay whereas MSP is the replacement of rank pay. How can you have both. MOD has very wisely delinked rank pay for the same reasons. You cannot have the cake and eat it too or can you ? OGs seem to have ingratiated Mr Aroor who is journo of doubtful credentials. A few patialas must have done the trick and then there is one Maj Navdeep who is blogging his way to glory with his half baked half truth half lie blog. If all this could take Lt Cols to PB-4 then all the best
Khaki said on Saturday, November 15, 2008, 18:00

compensation for the intangible disadvantages of military life experienced by Services personnel over their entire career ,that is what MSP is meant for. Can anyone beat this. I agree life is very difficult for the OGs, especially after a few patiala pegs of duty free scotch in an air conditioned club. Free ration gives them lot of indigestion and calories which they have to sweat it out in the gym. I think with so much hardship MSP must be doubled and made tax free
Khaki said on Saturday, November 15, 2008, 18:12

@ Force 1 . Yes i agree , it used to happen in India but the faujis were a different lot not like the current lot who measure their patriotism with MSP. Our countrymen have seen through the facade espcially after all these scams, fake encounters and now blasts in malegoan
Anonymous said on Saturday, November 15, 2008, 18:55

Khaki,
MSP is not equivalent of rank pay.
rank pay was carved out of basic in 4cpc and ought be merged into basic now. there is no rquirement of rank pay becos grade pay is there. MSP is that additional component which is for the harsh service life throughout one’s carreer.
neena said on Saturday, November 15, 2008, 22:01

would request everyone, incl u, khaki- plz ignore khaki. he seems to b an agent of the babus. lets not discuss this & that! no point. i would request readers to just read the wise comment posted on 3rd nov. it says it all. thts the game these folks play, & we are the suckers!! any doubts?
k.jayaraman said on Monday, November 3, 2008, 10:03

Sir, After reading M.A.History one this clear, that any commim mittee appointed will take a minimum of 90 days to submit its report throughout the World so that the the the feelings of the affected people will get waterdown. The delays will make the people to accept whatever the increase is offered and at times the authorities may divert the attention of the affected people to other topic which may be given better importance with motivation. Only two happenings are real and corrupt free i.e. (1) natural rain gives water and fills all the tanks (2) without any help our t;rees are are growing and forest maintains its strength. So let us hope to get the result ;of the committee within another 30 days and its effect by another 30 days. Thankyou.
neena said on Saturday, November 15, 2008, 22:13

enuff has been discussed about the various issues taken up, so lets stop at tht. any new discoveries of the babus trying to sink this country should be pointed out. PLEASE, REQUEST NO FURTHER DISCUSSIONS, IN PARTICULAR TO THE ‘POKES’ FROM OUR FRIEND KHAKHI.

I THINK WE SHOULD ALL USE OUR VOTING RIGHTS, AND NOW WITH A SUBSTANTIAL NUMBER OF VETERANS ON CIVVY STREET, REQUEST THEM TO STAND FROM PLACES WHERE WE HAVE SUBSTANTIAL ARMED FORCES VOTERS. AM SURE ONE WILL GET MORE THAN ENUFF VOTES FROM THE RIGHT THINKING PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTRY.
Vijaya Kumar R said on Sunday, November 16, 2008, 13:02

In the recent past we have witnessed through media, few episodes of resentment by defence personnel affecting the morale of our Armed Forces. The much talked about Sixth Pay Commission Report has brought wide spread discontent and ignoble countenance amongst its cadre in the Armed Forces. In the primordial reality the outcome of Sixth Pay Commission Report perpetually desecrated,degraded and outrageously disgraced the Armed Forces. The degradation and cynical deliberation of our Defence Forces by the authority through the Pay Commission Report has induced a devastating impact on the morale and honour of our Armed Forces,leading to total desolation and demoralization. It invariably weaken the fighting spirit of our Armed Forces,an incessant threat to our nation`s defence potentials and debilitate us strategically.
Who is the gainer by demoralizing the Armed Forces of our nation??. To` weaken the fighting forces” of our nation was the best possible course of action, our adversaries had adopted in the past, prelude to any major confrontation with our Nation.History had proved beyond doubt about this aspect during previous occasions. Indian public have full faith in our Armed Forces,because of their unblemished and indomitable record of military worth, be it at war or at peace time national need.
To weaken 13 lakhs strong willed and highly motivated Armed Forces of our nation is not a simple task that can be done by some loathsome individual but can only be an outcome of a cleverly executed global strategic conspiracy.Hence a question linger around in the mind of a common citizen of our country,as to whether the Sixth Pay Commission Report concerning the Armed Forces was an outcome designed and borne out of a deliberate global conspiracy to achieve its strategic aim through any vested interest inside our country or a rude jocularity by our authorities.The entire scandle need to be investigated at the highest level by an independent agency to clarify the malice behind the whole episode.
rgk said on Sunday, November 16, 2008, 19:28

@ khaki

You seems to be a fool. You will not understand a difference between basic, rank and military service pay, so there is no point to explain it to you. My sincere advice to you is to get lost and donot waste your steam. Otherwise also, what do you have do in pay anomalies of armed forces. begane shadi me abdulla diwana.
menon said on Sunday, November 16, 2008, 21:05

Khaki - there was a post here which talked about CPO/PMFs resenting PB4 to Lt Cols. Now the cat is out of the bag. The Member expenditure Mrs Sushma Nath who was with the SCPC and later instrumental in the present imbroglio is said to be the wife of an IPS officer (now bossing around on deputation with the BSF). He must have been getting inside information and advising his spouse how to divide and rule the Military/CPOs/PMFs. In fact the post was abruptly taken off this site. Are you that Khaki?
This amounts to subversion of the Armed Forces because of personal reasons and needs to be investigated.
dev said on Monday, November 17, 2008, 9:20

@ Jaysurya……….Who are you to use such dirty words for defence forces? People like you are the real parasites destroying the very fabric of this great nation? What stuff should be used to shub dep into your mouth stupid?Call yourself a human being………Get your self checked up ANIMAL..?
Khaki said on Monday, November 17, 2008, 13:17

Basic,rank pay, Military Service Pay, CI Allowance, Field Allowance,Kit Maintenance Allowance,Uniform Allowance, Tpt Aloowance . At this rate the OGs should be given existance allowance. “Is desh ko lootlo ” so that chinese and pakis dont have to think of attacking us. I believe this is known as defence
dev said on Monday, November 17, 2008, 15:44

@ khaki……….Whole nation knows about you and your ‘kartuuts’…….your barking shows your frustration deep inside your ***.
Col (Retd) I D Sharma said on Monday, November 17, 2008, 17:00

Sirs,
I fail to understand as to how such a foul mouth is permitted on this blog whose preamle is so clear on the subject, Due to which I have been controlling myself from commenting here. Mr khaki meet me in person and we will sort it out ones for. I sicerly request the Editorial board of this blog which Directly refers to our Parent Corps to protect its’ name from such fellows. If mannualy it is not possible design a weeding programme to weed out offensive articles. Jai Hind
Jayasurya said on Monday, November 17, 2008, 18:16

@ dev….. ANIMAL is what you see when you stand in front of the mirror. Don’t jump the gun before ‘reading between the lines’. Go through my comments once again to understand the ‘real enemy’ (read COAS report as CoS report).
dev said on Monday, November 17, 2008, 18:28

@ JaYASURYA…………my appologies are due..sorry!
menon said on Monday, November 17, 2008, 20:53

Khaki - Even a person Below Poverty level (BPL) pays 450 rupeees as bribes in a year to the civil govvt.. Toh kaun kisko loot raha hain? Kisi IAS ko biwi bana ke usse apna kaam nikalna tumse seekhe. Aur tum sharafat ki dhol bajaate ho? Sharm karo. Biwi ko aise istemaal karte ho?
binu said on Tuesday, November 18, 2008, 16:15

pls inform that you have removed this writing from the home page
howler said on Tuesday, November 18, 2008, 22:29

Come on fojis, come out of the box and see where the world stands today.
a) you haven’t fought a war since 1971
b) the ones you fought in 1971 and earlier, were with all out support of paramilitary forces
c)the one “war” that younger ones amongst you keep on referring to i.e. kargil, was a mere limited operation and without a doubt one that you yourself invited.
d) talk to any strategist worth his name and he will tell you that country is unlikely to fight a full fledged war with any one in the foreseeable future. And its going to be proxy war kind of situation.
e) in proxy war, just look around, all CPMFs are equally fighting shoulder to shoulder with you and with much discounted where-with-all and resources THAN YOU.
f) you shy away from taking on any new proxy war/low intensity conflict in the country by branding it as “internal disturbances to be looked after by MHA”, which they are doing thru CPMFs.
Thus, you cant claim a war victory exclusive to you so far, all that you claim you are doing is being done by CPMFs also, you want to palm of all new challenges before the country to hapless, resources-starved and under paid CPMFs in the garb of internal disturbances!

You still have the face to ask for more when you are getting the fattest pay packet in the country! not to talk of the enviable perks that no one is talking about at all.

Come on guys wake up and come out of that rank consciousness and stop asking for more merely looking at your placement in the warrant of precedence. Situation has changed from the time the WoP was conceived and your place in it is fast becoming irrelevant. Probably its already time to review it in the light of the changed scenario and the crucial role being played by CPMFs.
Get to work guys and stop playing a loud cousin amongst the uniformed fraternity.
But, alas, no one can ignore a loudmouth that you are.
Come on ppl, PMFs never claimed to be the army in the first place. Its the Indian Army which keeps on projecting how they are different from PMFs/IAS/IPS/…the whole world !!…/etc…etc.. ….and hence require to be paid more. When they are asked to spell out that exact difference, its for all to see that, there is some one else doing the same stuff at much discounted pay packet.
Its eighter too naive or plain sinister to brand PMFs demand for better deal as equating with Army. The parity and the criticality of the tasks and functions assigned to and performed by PMFs needs to be understood first. Its too shocking that some of you are so “inside-the-box” that you dont even have a scant regard for what they are doing, Or what they are meant to do. There nothing, except siachen, that is not handled by one PMF or the other as on date. But you shout from rooftops as if the whole army is sitting lock,stock and barrel on siachen. At any given point of time, its probably, only a minute fraction of the indian army that takes care of that place. But you make a vocal dash for it at every forum and evry time as if each one of you is screeming out from there right now! Probably, its also true, that most of you do not repeat do not, even get anywhere close to siachen in your entire service period. Except for a select few who actually do a tenure there, most of you do only what a PMF guy does. You just need to wake up, you’ll see a PMF guy around you.

PMFs are NOT asking for better deal because they think they are army! No they are NOT ! Their argument is that if you can pay the army, whatever they are getting, for the things they do SOMETIMES, then you ought to think of doling out something better for the PMFs for they are doing similar work full time, i.e. 24×7×365x TOTAL SERVICE YEARS!
menon said on Wednesday, November 19, 2008, 20:47

Howler - the next is that the Home Guards will be asking to be equated with the PMFs. After all aren’t they every where. Weird that an auxillary force wants to be better placed that the Primary force. Do you train for offensive ops in the Deserts or Mountains? War is only once but that is decisive. If the Army fails you will be serving foreign masters for another 1000 years. PMF at that time will be guarding areas while the Army moives forward. Do you take a Rs 10 insurance or do you take it in Lakhs? Why pay the high premium when you may never die in an accident? What is your role in ops. Being on the DCB and equating yourself with the Army is a joke. Just because one of your IPS masters is the Members Expenditures Husband who leaks (informations I mean) stop trying vile tricks. Why don’t you ask the IAS why the State PCS cadres aren’t paid better. After all they are a better force with better knowledge of the matters of the state. The PMF is not even considered competnt to command its own cadre. That is why you have outsiders in senior post like the hubby of the Member expenditure who is inciting you to make it a win win situation for his woman and himself.
Jayasurya said on Wednesday, November 19, 2008, 21:01

@ Howler…. What is your problem?. Armed forces never said that PMFs never to be paid what they deserve. Why you are crying foul to Army and what it can do?. It only shows your desperation. You suffer identity crisis. Somebody else is firing from your shoulders. You should ponder your points to those who brought you down to your present state. You have mistaken the role of ARMY. Of course army is there to solve all problems. But you see, your problem is beyond the purview of army. Armed Forces never said it is superior to any one as universal truth never needs to be repeated. By default every citizen feels that army is the finest institution of the country. If you fret and fume you only degrade yourself. Learn to respect fellow soldier who is sharing your pain and shun the forces which is using you to prove ‘their’ point. Leave the habit of ‘kicking the hands that feeds you and licking the boots that kicks you’.
praj said on Thursday, November 20, 2008, 8:24

Dear friends, who so ever have problems with defence forces pay should try to answer the following questions
1. why there is no SC/ST/OBC quota in defence and judiciary only?
2.Why only 80 seats in IMA has been filled in place of 220+ seats and so the case in NDA?
3. Why 1000 PMR applications are reaching to MOD every year & mind you none of the applications habe been approved?4.If defence forces are so treated well why PMR gate is not open for them?
5.If defnce forces are so well treated why people are not coming to fill vacant seats in the traing establish ment.
cool_jees said on Thursday, November 20, 2008, 10:10

hey guys, why fight now?
its through!!!!
Khaki said on Thursday, November 20, 2008, 13:08

Fellow OGs ,if wishes were horses your ranting and raving would have surely got the elusive PB-4. The shortage projected by Army is self created. When you have so many appoinments which are redundant. The Ofiicers of the rank Lt Col are in excess of 12000. Needless to say tthe problem is that of overstaffing. In certain cantonements one Lt Col is purely looking after the allotment of Qtrs. In CPO it is usually delegated to Subedars. The examples are many. 1000 PMR is another myth as there is no takers for these OGs especially after the economic crisis. Who wants a middleaged OG who is a misfit in the corporate culture
J. Jolly said on Thursday, November 20, 2008, 17:06

Babu’s will always remain Babooos.They cannot be called as Class I officers. Specially the baboos sitting in MOD.In fact all class one officer should have same pay structutre according to thir rank and pension also .
Tom said on Thursday, November 20, 2008, 19:36

It is atrocious on the part of PMFs to compare themselves with Armed forces. What is the most sophisticated weapon ever handled by PMFs. Rifle?. Have a look at other armed forces, although you are still no match with Army itself on any front. Best of technologies and the specialisation of skills to optimally exploit it, enter in military aircraft/ ships first. Honestly for PMFs, can you ever match their skills atleast?. Can you compare your leadership qualities with your army counterpart?. Their upbringing in armed forces is such that ethics, ethos and leadership qualities come naturally to them which the PMF people can never match. Reputation of Army trg institutes is enough to substantiate this fact. Coming to your profession, atleast I have not come across any officers of PMF getting killed in action in the recent past. Where as, in case of Army, we keep hearing offrs getting killed while leading from the front. Have little shame when you compare yourself with AF. The best you can compare with is the state police and other police organisations. Of course you definitely deserve an edge over them owing to your difficult working conditions, for which Army is also supporting your cause. Remember, when you compare with somebody the yard stick and the datum should be same. It is not so in your case. My opinion is not meant to degrade PMF, but miffed at the way you compare yourselves with armed forces.
dev said on Friday, November 21, 2008, 8:36

Dear friends,good news is that all four demands of defence forces are likely to be met by next Thursday.Babus wanted chiefs to agree to 16 years of service for Ltcols to be eligible for PB4,which was flatly turned down by chiefs.No body can take our brave defence forces for a ride and dilute their status as the defence forces have stood the test of time and have proudly preserved the sovereign and integrity of our great nation.No body should grudge what Para military forces can get for their valuable services rendered to the nation but no body should ever equate themselves with Priority one force.
dev said on Friday, November 21, 2008, 8:40

@ Khaki…………..Ltcols will get PB4 soon…….what will you do then…..commit suicide or die in shame.People like you are not worth considering.Sick chap.
Khaki said on Friday, November 21, 2008, 11:51

@ Dev,menon,suri and other OGs, Indian Army is the only institution which gives commision to 12th Pass and 3rd Div Graduates. You then start equating with the civil services . Do you have it in you what it takes to become an IAS or IPS ? Best wishes and keep fantasising about PB-4 which you will never get
kj said on Friday, November 21, 2008, 13:46

I have read with interest all the messages. The language used by many contributors needs to be more polite.
dev said on Friday, November 21, 2008, 21:06

@ Khaki…………..Your **** will be crushed under your own filthy weight…….Wait and watch you services baiter.
Anon said on Friday, November 21, 2008, 22:56

Just look at the “awful mess” we have created after tinkering with the 6 th CPC report, when it was clearly stated in it that if we tinker with it, many imbalances and frustrations would ensue. Let me be frank with one and all— Its all about moolah and uniformed forces and the civil heirarchy are only concerned with getting the maximum moolah. Who cares for deshbhakti and the “aam admi”(he is left to fend for himself in times now created of excruciating prices of basic necessities). Let me assure all citizens of India, that once the states too implement their pay revisions, there would be boomig prices and mayhem in the market. The social unrest created by the difference amongst the rich and poor has widened too large enough and this is scary for society. The jawans have only got about a paltry raise of Rs 5000/- in the report whereas the officers have gained to an extent of 5 to 6 times this amount. WHo cares for the soldiers who does all the hard physical work and the officers only administer with lip sync. They say that “soldiers fight battles but the kudos goes to the generals and officers”. What a travesty of life and what compensation to a soldier. But who cares? I am sure that the armed officers don’t. They are too selfish for their own pockets to get heavier.
grewal said on Saturday, November 22, 2008, 13:02

why dont you and your ias wife go and jump in a well ,you clot?
grewal said on Saturday, November 22, 2008, 13:03

this was for khaki-
grewal said on Saturday, November 22, 2008, 13:07

dear dev, you didn’t khaki does n’t have a pair of ****s, they have already been crushed and taken away by his IAS( or ?PA to some IAS)wife.
grewal said on Saturday, November 22, 2008, 13:08

dear dev, you didn’t know khaki does n’t have a pair of ****s, they have already been crushed and taken away by his IAS( or ?PA to some IAS)wife.
menon said on Saturday, November 22, 2008, 15:00

Khaki - only an imbecile like you equates eduation with grades. Knowledge and training is more than that. The high tech equipment used by even an infantry Jawan will reach your homes only after a decade. Biwi se pooch ke dekho. Maybe usse thodi si aur gyan hain. Khaki pehan ke, bewakoofo ki tarah bolke tum PB5 mein aana chate ho? Sharm karo. In a study conducted it was reported that Rs 60000 crores are paid annually by Indians as bribes. Divide this by the Babus and the Khakis and ask yourself whether you need pay?
Jiske paas mardangi nahi hain woh dusre ke naada hi naap sakta hain. Apne baare mein soche. Hamre naade ko mat naapo.
Balraj said on Sunday, November 23, 2008, 11:24

@Anon
Dear Anon,
Why anon? Anyway just a line or two to mull over.
1. Look up % of officers killed / wounded in action as compared to % of jawans (Total No Killed or wounded divided by Total No held). This is not to run down Jawans - they are amongst the best.

2. Officers lead from the front in battle.

3. Your “Aam Adami” may complain of price increase, load-shedding, piped water available at odd hours of morning/evening, lack of hygeine, traffic jams. Does he spare a thought for the fauzi (officer/jawan) who is paying with his life the price of your “Aam Adami’s” freedom (too cheap eh?); who is staying in areas where drinking water is same water which being used by cattle upstream or has to be backpacked from a source 1000-1500 feet downhill; for whom the mere fact that your petromax (hope you know what this is) is working is a great comfort. I could go on and on.

4. Half baked knowledge such as yours is dangerous, I would suggest greater study when commenting on such serious issues as morality of Armed Forces officers and their treatment of Jawans as, unwittingly, you may be responsible for undermining the officer-men relationship.

@ Khaki

Dear Khaki,
Faujis definitely don’t have what it takes to become IAS or IPS - the total lack of competence or character (I not sure which). Otherwise why would Army be called upon every time the IAS / IPS bungle-up -riots, insurgency, fire, flood…

There is difference between being more educated/intelligent and competent. You get paid for for your competence not education or intelligence. (Although you may be surprised at the amount of studies put in by an average officer after his commission).

However, I totally fail to understand the ultra vehement, even manic and vitriolic language of yours. Wish you would realise the absolute rabidness of your posts.
king hussain said on Sunday, November 23, 2008, 19:28

this khaki is an imbecile idiot…..don’t bother for dogs like him…let him stay put in his kennel!!….
A true fouji said on Monday, November 24, 2008, 19:26

The difference between a Civil Servant and a Military Man is that:

A military man at top level plans with his intelligence and is executed by his force successfully.

In Civil the bottom most man or a clerk puts-up a draft and note and it is approved through the hierarchy of the cadre without using their brain…

What…. a…..joke. These Babus say that they are intelligent.. how???????????????
Deeply Troubled Soldier said on Monday, November 24, 2008, 21:57

The issue is about parity with status which existed in the V pay commission,it is not about pay,it is unbecomng of the Cabinet Secretary to delierately confuse it with pay and make it appear to the public at large that the demands of the Army are not tenable.

What was the need to have the VI pay commission,if the DA had gone to 100%or 500%,so be it,the computers would have calculated it.At least the parity would have been maintained.

Replacing pay scale with pay band is all hogwash,you still have different grade pay which serves the purpose of the erstwhile pay scale. The only purpose the VI pay commission has achieved is to lower the status of the Armed forces. You could have easily had one pay band each for each group A,B,or C. Why should there be two pay bands for Group A.
Yossarian said on Monday, November 24, 2008, 22:12

Any one knows the name and back ground of Mrs Sushma Nath’s IPS hubby.It will be interesting if the skeletons in his cupboard start coming out.

I suggest all of us send a rose to Mrs Sushma Nath and the Cabinet Secretary.
krishnamurhy said on Wednesday, November 26, 2008, 8:34

do it requres months to revise armedforces salaries and pensions? please sxpedite
krishnamurhy said on Wednesday, November 26, 2008, 8:39

we submit our comments is there any action on it?self 2nd worldwar pensioner drwaing Rs2913 per month whech is not enough to live why cant governament ingrease resonabley to war vetarans?
amahen said on Sunday, November 30, 2008, 0:03

hey- how come khaki has vanished. i hope the terrorists didnt get him while he was dining in Taj (am sure he could afford it!) !! If so, may his soul rest in peace. wish Ms Nath was also with him!! poor guy……..
amahen said on Sunday, December 7, 2008, 16:56

the silence is shattering!!!! what happened?
Anon said on Monday, December 15, 2008, 18:42

Mr Balraj has got it all wrong. What I wrote is not to undermine or create any tensions amongst the officer and jawan relationship. If you read correctly, I am only simply saying that the jawan should be getting more than what has been given by the 6 th CPC. Do you think that I do not know about the armed forces? Do you know who does the physical work in the armed forces? Obviously you don’t.
R Anand said on Tuesday, December 23, 2008, 20:18

Dear Khaki,

I am wrong right from the word to address you as dear. any ways being a gentle man I have no other option to address u as “DEAR”. You know what is a CO of a battalion? He is the person who maintains a force level of 700 armed men well motivated, ready to even lay down their live on his one word called “attack”. Can you tell me how many men will be ready to die for your so called DM? What a DM can do and a CO cant is keep to delaying things which are for public and filter it out in some way or the other, fabricate falls case against innocent people to save those who have money and muscle powers. I just visited a central jail in Nagpur and closely interacted with some of the prisoners who are there since 20 years or more and found that majority of them have been booked for murder which they never committed, just because they were poor and uneducated. Who is to be blamed for this?

If the DM is so competent why does he has to call for a Platoon commander, much smaller than a CO, when there is an unrest which is beyond his capabilities? Let me tell u there numerous example of military running the administration of a nation how ever there is non where civil administration has been able to perform the duties of Military,, yes they have time and again created a situation where a nation has to be ashamed of like insurgents. Military get them on their keens and civil administration releases them on some pretext or the other. What was DM. or home Secretary of state doing when Bombay was attacked? Why he had to look towards military? If you can run a country without military then why time and again you look towards them? Small event of child falling into a bore well cant be managed by the DM without help coming from military you think they can run a country… you only make my laugh by your statement.. by the way are you one of those cadres? If yes then even GOD may not be able to save this country but the military will still do.

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